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| Something new in f1r? |
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Posted by: Anton - 31-03-2018, 01:34 AM - Forum: Marginalia
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Locate the ykal in line 1. Move upwards from k, past the wormhole. Immediately at the upper edge of the folio there's a three letter inscription. The letters are of the size of Voynichese glyphs of the main text, only the lines are thinner. Playing with colour transform suggests they're in the same ink.
The second letter looks like "a", the third - like "h" or "b". The first one is more difficult, maybe "c", but actually it resembles a Voynichese d, or 8 in val8en in f116v.
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| alternating patterns |
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Posted by: MarcoP - 29-03-2018, 05:33 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Here I discuss a few patterns of the type X Y X, in which the same word X occurs twice with another word Y occurring between the repetitions of X.
I compare with data from a few European languages, but of course I don't know what these pattern might mean in the VMS and I am not sure the comparisons presented here are significant.
1. Alternating repetition X Y X Z
I considered occurrences of the pattern "X Y X Z" where X,Y and Z are three different words. Basically, I am looking for the same word repeating in alternation with other content.
Examples:
Grief dallied with [nor law nor limit] knows.
Now stole upon [the time the dead] of night
And instances [of infinite of] love
A particular case which I initially excluded are matches of the type "X Y X Y"v (these are discussed below).
I also excluded cases in which Y begins or end with the same character as X, in order to avoid considering cases of X X' X that could be related with X X X (and again with reduplication).
The histograms are based on text samples of about 38,000 words each. Words are sorted by decreasing number of matches to the alternating pattern described above (the red bars). The green bars correspond to the expected number of matches on the basis of word frequencies and considering a totally random order.
These two graphs correspond to Italian (Dante "Divina Commedia") and English (the Genesis in King James' version). In this two samples, the most common word also is the one that most conforms to the pattern: the conjunction "e" / "and". The matches are slightly less than what would be expected with a random order: i.e. the pattern is averagely "avoided", most occurrences of the conjunction do not appear in this configuration.
Examples:
Isaac gave up the ghost [and died and was] gathered unto his people
and he turned himself about from them [and wept and returned] to them again
they lifted up their eyes [and looked and behold] a company of Ishmeelites came
MISC.JPG (Size: 58.21 KB / Downloads: 309)
The following graphs are for two Latin scientific texts: the classical Pliny and the early modern Mattioli. The conjunction "et" is still the most frequent match: this time the matches are more frequent than expected. Please note that Mattioli (but not Pliny) makes use of several words that seem to be almost exclusively used in the XYXZ pattern ("tunc", "nec", "aut" being the most frequent). These roughly correspond to the English "either..or" ("tunc" and "aut") and "neither..nor" ("nec").
"non" behaves like "et", but obviously is less frequent.
The difference between Mattioli and Pliny makes clear that some phenomena are more related to personal style than to language.
LATIN.JPG (Size: 61.19 KB / Downloads: 310)
The graphs are based on the VMS: the whole ms on the left and Quire13 only on the right.
VMS_2.JPG (Size: 75.4 KB / Downloads: 315)
The graph for the whole VMS is very different from those of the other sets. A first difference is that the scale is smaller: the most common word ("daiin") is considerably less frequent than the conjunction in the language I examined. Anyway, absolute frequency apart, "daiin" seems to behave similarly to the conjunction in English and Italian.
What I found particularly interesting and unexpected is that the word that most frequently matches the pattern is not a very frequent word: "qokain". These are the 9 matches included in the graph:
sain ol keeshy qokain dy olshedy You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. aly
qokain sheety qokain dar dar shedy qokar ol dy
qokain olshey qokain dar ol shedy qokedy qokeedy qokar olshedy oldy
sor olky qoty ty tor cheyky totol opchedy qokain sheky qokain ol
ycheeytal checthy qokain qokain checthy qokain ol
pol olor chey qokain shedy qokain olchesy ol r aindar
oraiin sheor qokain cheody qokain otal okaiin olkeeor ar al oldy
qokain sheol qokain chckhey lchedy okar al qotal shedy otain far aiin am
qokaiin cheal tain qokain shey qokain char shcthey qoky chy qokaiin
A possibility is that this word is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. similar to the Latin "tunc" / "nec". The occurrences of "qokain" are mostly concentrated in Q13 and Q20, but more in Q13. The corresponding graph highlights that the occurrences of the "alternating pattern" are more than expected even if one considers Q13 only. The possibility that the matches are accidental are limited, because the number of matches is consistently higher than expected: even considering Q13 only, observed occurrences almost double the expected number. Of course it is not possible to be sure that this is just coincidental, but occurrences of the pattern in other languages appear to be meaningful.
It is worth pointing out that the similar word "qotain" has two matches of the pattern, while the other similar word "qokaiin" has a single match.
"qotain" is about 1/4 as frequent as "qokain", so 2 vs 9 matches are consistent.
On the other hand, "qokaiin" is about as frequent as "qokain", so the difference 1 to 9 appears to be significant.
2. Chiasmus X Y Y X
Analysing the "qokain" matches above, I noticed another pattern that we could call "chiasmus":
X Y Y X
An occurrence of this pattern appears in King James (1 Chronicles 29:11):
all that is in the heaven and in the earth [is thine; thine is] the kingdom
In the VMS, I have found these 6 occurrences:
qotcheaiin dchain [cthain daiin daiin cthain] qotaiin
qotchaiin [shor cthol cthol shor] chotchy tchodar
[shol chol chol shol] ctoiin sos odan
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. qokain dar shey lshcthy okar okain ylaiin y
ycheeytal [checthy qokain qokain checthy qokain] ol
[qokol chol qokol qokol chol] cheey or aiin oldal
Three of the occurrences actually form five-words sequences of the form
X Y Y X Y
or
X Y X X Y
3. Word-couple repetition X Y X Y
Finally, I checked the X Y X Y sequences I had initially excluded. I believe this can be seen as a variant of the consecutive repetition of the same word, so its structure is (X Y)(X Y).
I found 6 of these as well.
sair cheain cphol dar You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. daikam
coy choiin sho [s chy s chy] tor ols
qotchor [cheor chey cheor chey] soiin sor daiin
sal shedy qokain shey qoin [ol shey ol shey] qoky qol cheey chl or sheolo
olshees ol sheckhy qokain ol [chedy qol chedy qol] keey [qolchedy] chealy
(in the last example, note that "qol chedy" also appears as "qolchedy")
English examples:
Why, this would make [a man a man] of salt
and when he caught it he let it go again, and after it again, [and over and over] he comes, and up again, catch'd it again
But now her cheek was pale, [and by and by] It flash’d forth fire, as lightning from the sky.
All these patterns appear related to the well-know phenomenon of word repetition, but they are also different because they involve more than a single word-type. They could be the longest structured fragments easily discernible in the ms (five-words sequences in particular) .
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| Opening of the Voynich Café in Burgos |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 27-03-2018, 06:57 AM - Forum: News
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Today, 27 March 2018, will see the official and festive opening of the "Voynich Café" in Burgos, which is connected with the "Museo del Libro" and the "Museo del Cid".
It will also see the launching of the "Voypinch", of which I don't know the ingredients.
As soon as there are photos I will add them here.
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| Thematic and translation of the VM |
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Posted by: luiscrassus - 25-03-2018, 05:25 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Thematic and translation of VM.
The VM deals with human souls, that left underworld and return home. Obsessed by devil, and damned souls must be bathed by holy (sacred) reverend, monks and angels in holy water and purify from hell's mud (on drawings it is a green water), so they amend and can return to underworld. Herbs on drawings illustrate obsessed souls. There are no receipt in VM at all.
The map in VM tells the story of men-souls, that wander across the country and seek the route to the postmortem garden (Elysium), where they must step forward the God's court, that will decide, if they are worthy for immortality. Many disasters are also described: volcano eruption, earth quake, muddy floods, sinking port (harbor,dock), opening in overpass and hell gate that absorbs people. Men that attempt to escape from disaster, pass the rocky massifs, some fall in to gap. From the underground gigantic hell catfishes go out and destroy the country. Faithful pray in church, but devils interrupt the mass. . . . .
VM can be compared to artworks of Dante Alighieri.
Text map VM-rosette in the right middle.
dilez(envoys) v(from,of) imoro (worthy immortality)doad (got) ilo (beyond). amesdo (The outside was) tulo (guarded by) ela (the damneds). nesoldo (Postmortem garden) les (of the fairs) vims (and braves,) vol (cannot be) amsrox (entered) vimsfo (by blissfuls). ameshes (Knit) ameslo (by spirits) amelo (in the tavern). amelo (In the tavern) vi (they found) vilo (miserables) ela (damneds) azlo (who whispered dogu (in principle) viro (men) am (theirself) sro (for entry) amoro (must pay). amoro (Paid) viro (men) vslo (by purse) dilox (obsessed) diz (denars) vilaes (governor) vildo (of wilderness).
asquivo (Departs were) avil (summoned) amslo (for mass)
qei (They) dilo (left) avei (to confession) fo (of fate-Gots court)
ams (Such) vim (powerful)
dims (sole) mono (mountains)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Luis Crassus
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| Lunar mansions... yet again. |
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Posted by: Diane - 25-03-2018, 11:09 AM - Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
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Even at Voynich ninja, a search on 'lunar mansions' will turn up a long list of posts.
I've been explaining that they are not 'magical' by definition... and explaining their use as an earlier and persistent alternative (beyond Europe) for astronomical and geographic co-ordinates.
I've talked about their use in navigation, as explained by the fifteenth-century master of the Indian Ocean routes, Ibn Majid. I've quoted Sergeant and others on the Yemeni agricultural calendars which name the months in that way.
I - and doubtless others - have noted that they name the lunar months of the Islamic calendar, and that every muezzin would have known them and the stars marking each.
It is therefore a little disappointing to notice that the older idea that any mention of the manzil must be 'magical' is being pursued again, but the bright side is that in a passage translated recently by Marco Ponzi there are two clear indications that the Latin material has come from Islamic Spain, and that its basic attitudes are compatible with the period when Ibn Arabi wrote his 'Bezels of Wisdom' and 'Holy Names..'
I've also spoken about these works before, in explaining how the system of lunar mansions was employed in much the way the Psalter was in earlier Latin Europe: to provide the basic structure upon with additional sets of information were attached in one variation of aids to recall.
Anyway, the clues in Ponzi's translation are these:
... oh, sorry. I can't be more precise, or quote the original passages because Marco Ponzi doesn't wish me to read what he writes, and has now (since I read the post first) blocked my ability to read it. Things the non-conservative are not meant to read, apparently.
Hardly conducive to scholarly exchange, improved understanding or reasonable debate but there you go.
I don't quite see the sense of it, frankly, because any spammer could surely just get a new email address, use someone else's computer or employ some similar dishonesty if they wished.
If they cared enough.
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| Claimed translations |
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Posted by: Diane - 24-03-2018, 11:11 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Two things - first, has anyone made a list of every claimed translation for the written part of the text? Someone asked me how many there are now, and I found myself unable even to guess. Twenty? Thirty?
Secondly, I thought it might be interesting to compare each claimed translation of a single folio - I've chosen folio 33v because the text is fairly short but not too much so.
Anyone able to provide one or more claimed translation of f.33v?
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| A random language upon which to experiment |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 23-03-2018, 08:28 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Thought experiment in progress....
We wish to analyse an entirely unknown language to see if our statistical models work upon it to produce meaning.
The language should be European based, but not a formalised main stream lingua franca. The language must be organic, as opposed to constructed. At the same time, we need to be able to translate this language to ensure the accuracy of our models.
For reasons of transcription, we use the European alphabet, but we are not concerned with standardised spelling.
So, what language to use? Here's one example, Polari (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Quote:Polari (or alternatively Parlare, Parlary, Palare, Palarie, Palari; from Italian parlare, "to talk") is a form of cant slang used in Britain by some actors, circus and fairground showmen, professional wrestlers, merchant navy sailors, criminals, prostitutes, and the gay subculture. There is some debate about its origins, but it can be traced back to at least the 19th century and possibly the 16th century.
So, my question: what analysis can we run upon this "language" to gain a base reading for our statistical analysis before applying them to the Voynich language? I have lots of half formed ideas, but I would value input before expounding upon them.
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| Articles by Sukhotin |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 22-03-2018, 08:33 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Most people will be familiar with the algorithm of Boris V. Sukhotin that identifies which characters in a text are more likely to be vowels and which are more likely to be consonants.
The Russian text was translated into English by Jacques Guy and published in Cryptologia.
There is also a copy of this article You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
Sukhotin has designed several more articles and these were also translated by Jacques Guy. He posted them to the old mailing list in 1997.
I have converted these to HTML and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
They seem quite interesting, and I am not aware of anyone having tried them out on the Voynich MS text.
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