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Welcome, Guest You have to register before you can post on our site. Username/Email:    Password    Remember me Search Forums (Advanced Search) Online Users There are currently 325 online users. » 5 Member(s) | 317 Guest(s) Applebot, Bing, Google, Dana Scott, Kendiyas, magnesium, Ruby Novacna Latest Threads Red Herrings are sometime... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Bluetoes101 47 minutes ago » Replies: 1 » Views: 20 A good match, perhaps fro... Forum: Marginalia Last Post: R. Sale 2 hours ago » Replies: 38 » Views: 1,339 More Germanic influences ... Forum: Astrology & Astronomy Last Post: magnesium 5 hours ago » Replies: 19 » Views: 18,116 Favorite Plant Tournament... Forum: Voynich Talk Last Post: Bluetoes101 8 hours ago » Replies: 16 » Views: 729 f17r multispectral images Forum: Marginalia Last Post: Aga Tentakulus 8 hours ago » Replies: 85 » Views: 15,710 Need advice for testing o... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: nablator Yesterday, 01:06 PM » Replies: 91 » Views: 4,663 SOLUTION/ the Voynich Man... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: ReneZ Yesterday, 10:27 AM » Replies: 10 » Views: 367 Music of the Spheres and ... Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: Kris1212 17-07-2025, 03:25 PM » Replies: 4 » Views: 274 How LLM models try to und... Forum: Analysis of the text Last Post: quimqu 17-07-2025, 08:13 AM » Replies: 5 » Views: 374 Written in a mirror? Forum: Theories & Solutions Last Post: oshfdk 16-07-2025, 06:57 PM » Replies: 2 » Views: 182

Siege Imagery with VMS Similarities... Posted by: -JKP- - 10-10-2019, 05:52 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) The VMS rosettes folio doesn't feel like siege imagery to me, but there are some iconographical elements in siege drawings that relate to the way other things were drawn in the 14th and 15th centuries, so I thought it might be interesting to look at them. I didn't want Marco's discussion of tents to go off-topic, so I thought it might be a good idea to start a separate thread for the broader topic of siege imagery. To start off... This is the 7th century siege of Constantinople by the Sassanids/Ava/Slavic forces (fresco in Modovita Monastery) which was painted in 1537. What it has in common with the VMS rosettes folio is the big round waves around one edge of the city walls (similar to the "big wave" shapes in the VMS rotum top-right) and high mountain escarpments with a castle on a separate "bump" nearby: Image credit Man vyi, Wikipedia If you look closely, you will also see long pipes that look like cannons pointing out at the ship in the water. Pipes were used to shoot fire at least before the 12th century. ----------- The siege of Chandax (Biblioteca Nacional de España). Note the tents, arches, and the "bumpy texture" for the helmets (this was a common way to depict an army wearing helmets): .   Wikipedia from the History of John Skylitzes ---------- Saddleback portal gate and tents showing the tie-downs (maybe belongs on the tent thread, but I thought it was a good example of a saddleback portal): Siege of Hennebont (1342, depicted in the 15th century), Jean Froissart, BNF via Wikipedia ---------- Men dressed as mounds. Not quite like the mounds on the rosette folio (they have holes in the top), but I thought I'd post them, for the record, along with another saddleback portal gate: Göttingen Codex philos 63 (15th century)   The Sticks and Bumps on the rosettes folio Posted by: -JKP- - 10-10-2019, 09:19 AM - Forum: Imagery - No Replies I've suggested some of the bumpy things on the rosettes folio could be volcanoes, mud spouts, steam vents, and other geological structures. But some of them look man-made rather than natural... And maybe some of the "natural" looking ones are manmade. For example... the production of gunpowder used to be done in small ceramic kegs, hung from the ceiling, but you need charcoal, and for centuries, charcoal for various purposes has been burned under mounds, some of which are tiered layers. Maybe some of those strange steaming mounds on the rosettes folio are charcoal mounds: .    Often the mound was created with logs and sticks (the part that burns), with pats of mud blobbed onto the sticks. These look quite a bit like the vented blobby small mounds on the rosettes folio. Here is a woodcut of charcoal workers: Pounding the powder used to be done by rows of men, but they eventually engineered a wheel to pound the powder. ----------- Also, there are a lot of skinny vertical "sticks" around one of the rota that look to me like palisades around a town (or like spears stuck in the ground, all pointing up) next to a lot of rounded textures:   Palisades.png (Size: 72.88 KB / Downloads: 76) At first I thought they might be a palisade: But here's another thought... bumps and spears in a different context (the group on the left, with helmets and spears, shields and spears can look like that, as well):    Pipes, wheels, bumps, vertical-pointing sticks...   The "spokes" on the rosettes folio Posted by: -JKP- - 10-10-2019, 08:23 AM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (3) There are several spoke-like patterns on the rosettes folio. They could be domes, tents, water wheels (like a mill wheel), fountain cisterns, or any number of things. A couple of them remind me of mill wheels, like this early medieval drawing (note the way the pipe and the water are drawn): Wikipedia British Library, The Lutrell Psalter There are also water-lifting wheels for wells and for irrigation (also to move water out of mining sites). For comparison to the western drawing, here is a Persian wheel: Here's a further idea for the spoke wheels... some kind of crank mechanism... there were many different kinds of wheel-cranks in the Middle Ages and some were quite large (note that there are Ghibelline merlons):   VMS - a holy book of the Romani people? Posted by: Gavin Güldenpfennig - 09-10-2019, 02:43 AM - Forum: Provenance & history - Replies (2) Dear Voynich- fans, during the last weeks I have reviewed my former "linguistic theory", that the Voynich Manuscript could be written in Erromintxela. And I have to say..... it isn´t the Erromintxela we know today, but (!) the VMS seems to have a Romani connection. Why? The Voynich astronomy seems to be star- based. Some of the stars of the folio 68r1 and r2 are marked with white or a black dots in the middle. Also we can see star- holding women in the Zodiac charts and in front of the passages in the recipe section. In the VMS we do have drawings of tent- like things full of stars, with a nail or a cross (christianity(?)) on its top. 1.) Today we don´t know very much about the Romani mythology, but we know they have connections to the Hinduism and maybe also to the Buddhism, because they originally came from India. In both religions the "Polaris" (which, if my reading is correct, in the VMS is called "hava" (French: gaffa / Old Norse: hadda = "nail")) plays an important role, as you can see in this German Wikipedia article ("Weltenberg"): Sumbur heißt derselbe Berg bei den Mongolen, Sumur bei den Burjaten und Sumer bei den Kalmücken. Der sich drehende indische Weltenberg passt zur asiatischen Vorstellung einer Weltsäule, die wie eine Holzstange in der Zeltmitte bis zum Himmelsgewölbe ragt. Sie ist die vergrößerte Form eines Nagels, wie einige nordasiatische Völker den You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nannten, weil sich um ihn in einer Kreisbewegung der Sternenhimmel dreht. In skandinavischen Sagen heißt dieser Drehpunkt veraldarnagli („Weltnagel“), die You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sprechen vom bohinavlle („Nordnagel“). Wie die Säule ragt der Weltenberg bis zum Polarstern, er erstreckt sich also vom Erdnabel zum Himmelsnabel; und wie der Polarstern im Norden liegt, wird auch der Weltenberg im Norden vorgestellt. Inder verorten den Weltenberg in dem für sie im Norden gelegenen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. und bringen ihn wie die Tibeter vorzugsweise mit dem heiligen Götterberg You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Verbindung. Die You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. wenden sich beim Gebet nach Norden, wo sie den Himmelsgott vermuten, die Buddhisten brachten gemäß einer Schilderung aus dem 13. Jahrhundert die nordwärts gewandte Gebetsrichtung mit nach Zentralasien. Der Polarstern, um den die Sterne ihre Kreise ziehen, steht üblicherweise – außer bei den You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – über dem Sumeru. Bei den Kalmücken verbergen sich in einer sternlosen Nacht die Himmelskörper hinter dem Sumer. 2.) The Romani people also have mythological creatures called "Nivasi". They exist in male and female forms, but the female Nivasi are described as naked and with long hair and with red shoes, exactly as the VMS women (except: the red shoes): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 3.) According to this source, the Romani people also do have a legend of the book of Dundra, which they tell us in the "Alako Legend". It´s a secret book, which explains the world. I do not say, that this is the Voynich Manuscript, but maybe the VMS is a result of this belief, especially if we think of the missing writing tradition of the Romani. 4.) Furthermore the fire plays an important role in their culture and they do have mermaids, which we can also see on page 79v in the VMS. 5.) The fire also plays an important role in the Zoroastrism. During the time between the 5th and 7th century, when according to the Shahnameh Legend the Luri and Romani came to the Sassanid Empire, the Zoroastrism was the main religion in this area. We can find two symbols of this religion on page 1r in the VMS which are connected to Atar (the angel of fire) and "ates" (the fire or the eternal flame). Also the Sassanid royal family were believing in the Anahita cult. A cult of a water goddess which was also the goddess of fertility. 6.) In the Zoroastrism you have six angels. If you link the three female angels and their attributes to the themes in the Voynich manuscript, you will see, that they fit very well. 7.) What does not really seem to fit with these findings is something which I can not identify for sure, but if my reading and the readings of Stephen Bax is correct, there could be a "Taurus" cult in the manuscript. Taurus is shown at folio 68 r3 and "Taurus" is also labeled at the upper left of the chart on folio 57 v, maybe as the beginning of the year in the VMS culture.  8.) In addition to that, there is a connection between the most important star at folio 68 r1 (today: Arcturus) and the star "Elnath" in the constellation of Taurus. When Arcturus reaches the zenith, Elnath "dies", which is happening near to the dates of Beltane (or Ostara) and to the time the sun is wandering through the constellation of Taurus. Is that a reference to the Roman- Persian Mithra- cult? Think back, the Zodiac calendar is a Roman Calendar!  9.) But there is even a fourth calendar in the manuscript, which could lead together with the calendars at 68 r1 and at 57 v (which starts on Beltane) into another direction. The calendar of folio 67 r1 starts with the winter´s solstice followed by the months called "Al- Paraton" (December) and "Eponas" (January).  Could it be that there are even Celtic influences in the VMS? Epona was a well- known Celtic goddess of the horses which was adapted by the Romans. If this true which 9 heavens does the Rosette page 86 shows us? The nine heavens of the Hinduism or of the Northern Europeans? These questions were wandering through my mind for the last weeks. Until I found a possible solution... What if the Romani people leave Chorasan and Bakhtria during the 5th century and went to the Southern Caucasus region and Galatia (where the Galatian tribes (Celts) live at that time? Is there any evidence for or against that? According to the Shahnameh legend the Romani people have to leave the Sassanid kingdom, but did they really do this?  If the VMS originally comes from this time and was written in Galatia, the VMS, we know today, must be an extended copy of the original! But, if my reading of 116v is correct, who brought it to Navarra and when? Do you have any ideas?    Golden asterisk stars Posted by: R. Sale - 08-10-2019, 10:17 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (2) Recently rereading the Oresme investigations posted by Nick Pelling from Oct 2017, I see that it has been two years gone by. Has there been any further indication as to whether any of the three remaining, unexamined copies of Nicole Oresme’s Du ceil et du monde might contain a cosmic diagram or not? There also seems to be a problem with P. Arnaud’s interpretation of BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23 in his article on mappae mundi. He would be correct, if BNF 565 fol. 23 was a mappa mundi, but it is not. A mappa mundi is intended to be geographic. BNF 565 fofl. 23 is not geographic. It has no real geographic features; it has no cities. What medieval map of the world shows the lower half of the earth as all water? BNF 565 fol. 23 is an inverted T-O and it is pictorial. It is not a perverted mappa mundi. It is something else. What is it? Well, first of all, BNF 565 fol. 23 is a cosmographical diagram, not just a map of the earth. But with the focus on how the earth is represented, the best match for BNF Fr 565 fol. 23 still appears to be Harley 334 fol. 29, as originally presented in 2014 by E. Velinska. This is another inverted T-O, pictorial representation of earth in the center of a cosmic diagram. And beyond the earth images, there is an interesting comparison in the similarity of the stars and the great differences in the representations of the two cosmic boundaries. There is another illustration in the Harley 334 manuscript, which is fol. 34v, that shows a pictorial earth with water on the lower portion as the central part of a cosmos where the Earth is being measured by ‘God the Geometer.’ This then is similar to BNF Fr. 1082, which is the other “Oresme” illustration, showing another version of God and a pictorial cosmos, but where are the stars? And here is where it would be helpful know about potential illustrations in the other three ‘Oresme’ manuscripts. In addition to this, there are various illustrations depicting God and the cosmos, in which the sphere is represented as an inverted T-O, but where the actual depiction of the object may be blank or colored, rather than pictorial. In contrast to the ‘Oresme’ situation, where there are only two manuscripts currently known to have cosmic illustrations, there are multiple versions of the ‘de Metz’ text, prior to the version in Harley 334. And all of them present the many-layered system of concentric circles showing the celestial spheres.  One is a simple line diagram of labeled, planetary spheres within the ‘firmament’ [Harley 4333 fol. 57]. Another is a complex line diagram inserting the four classic elements in the central spheres [Arsenal 3516 fol. 179r]. There is a simple representation where the planetary spheres are painted and labeled [BNF Fr. 24428 fol. 30]. And there are more complex [BNF Fr. 12469 fol. 71v] and more complex images, some with the introduction of Hell’s Maw in the very center. And there was also an apparent introduction of religious figures [BNF Fr. 14964 fol.  117;  BNF Fr. 574 fol. 136v; Royal 19 A IX fol.149]. And all these illustrative depictions of the cosmos in the different versions of the de Metz text, Imago mundi, conform to the poly-concentric structure, obviously along with various other medieval authors, in their representations of this more scientific and ‘modern’ cosmic structure. And though it may be tempting to call this structure ‘Ptolemaic’, technically it requires epicycles to differ from the Aristotelian version. Only Harley 334, of all the ‘de Metz’ manuscripts, depicts a cosmos with no planetary and elementary spheres. All of this seems to imply that the inverted T-O, pictorial representations of BNF Fr 565 and Harley 334 are part of the traditional, religious interpretation of Earth, its creation, sometimes its creator, and a very basic structure for the cosmos as a whole, rather than being a guide to the celestial spheres or a geographic map of the known world. These images would seem to be examples of what might be called a ‘Biblical’ depiction of the cosmos, visually representative of a traditional, religious interpretation. Despite their authorial sources, Nicole Oresme (d. 1382) and Gossuin (or Gautier) de Metz (fl. 13th C) even earlier, there is a more immediate common factor connecting these two manuscripts. Both BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334 were versions of the original authors’ texts apparently copied and produced in Paris within or at least mostly within the averaged C-14 dates for the VMs parchment. [The Oresme ms. (BNF 565) Is dated c. 1410; the de Metz ms (Harley 334). from 1425-1449; the Voynich ms. (Beineke 408) between 1404-1438.]   Adding these two relevant illustrations (Harley 334 fol. 34v and BNF Fr. 1082) to the original cosmic comparison helps to better understand the nature of the BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23 illustration and leaves the mappa mundi interpretation in the dust. At the same time, there is now the complication of additional cosmic comparisons in this newly expanded group of four illustrations. And given the complexities of these comparisons, it seems helpful to examine the depictions in relation to their three component parts. These are the central Earth, the surrounding starry sky and the outer cosmic boundary. The four illustrations show that there are a variety of ways to represent those elements. In all four cases, the central Earth has painted depictions of wavy lines to represent water on the lower half or lower portion (Harley 334 fol. 34v). The two original examples clearly show an inverted T-O, while BNF Fr. 1082 has an off-center space between two buildings, and Harley 334 fol. 34v is like sailing up to a mangrove forest on a moonlit night, where you can’t see past the thicket (a primordial world like God created). And there is also some variation in what has been depicted in the upper portion: a forest, a city, the countryside, or possibly clouds. The depiction of Earth in Harley 334 fol. 29 is still the one most similar to BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23. In the second part of the comparison, there is the starry sky. At least in the original examples (BNF 565 fol. 23 and Harley 334 fol. 29 et al.), the sky is starry. These are the golden asterisk stars in a bright blue sky, very similar to the depictions found in the works of Christine de Pisan (Harley 4431) also located to Paris in the early 1400s. And continuing in a 1447 copy from Paris of De proprietatibus rerum originally by Bartholomaeus Anglicus, which shows golden asterisk stars on blue or red backgrounds. [Amiens, Bibliothèque municipale, Ms. 399, fol. 241] The use of the golden asterisk as an artistic technique may not be exclusive to Paris in the first half of the 1400s, but it seems to be well represented in several examples in Harley 334 alone. Meanwhile, comparing the four cosmic diagrams, Harley 334 fol. 34v has a sky, but no apparent stars in a cosmos potentially still under construction. And BNF Fr. 1082, the other ‘Oresme’ illustration, omits sky and stars altogether and goes straight to the cosmic boundary. And for the third part of the comparison, looking at the cosmic boundaries in Harley 334, it is no surprise to see they are the same; narrow, plain, circular bands of off white (inner) and red (outer), thin as an eggshell. In contrast, the two Oresme illustrations have elaborate, blue and white cloud bands, which are clearly very different from each other in their visual appearance. The scallop-shell pattern of BNF Fr. 565 fol.23 shows a strong similarity to certain illustrations from the same de Pisan manuscript [Harley 4331]. While the cloud-band in BNF Fr.1082 has an entirely different painting technique with no apparent internal line pattern.   Having established a slightly broader basis of comparison than the original 2014 discussion, perhaps it is possible to look a littler deeper into the comparison of specific parts of these cosmic diagrams, with the illustration of the VMS cosmos (f68v) included. Is there some sort of connection to be found beyond the direct comparison of the VMs cosmos with BNF Fr 565 fol. 23? The representation of the mermaid and fish on fol. 57 of Harley 334 would seem to suggest that there is. So, with this background, let’s now go further and examine the component parts of the Voynich cosmos. Is the VMs illustration a strangely stripped-down copy of some other cosmic depiction, such as BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23, or is it something else? Starting with the Earth at the center, the VMs appears to present an inverted T-O version, although it is a bit faint. Unlike all four other representations however, the VMs version of the Earth is not pictorial; it is linguistic. So right off, the VMs is not a visual copy of any of the pictorial representations, because the copy of a pictorial representation is still a pictorial representation. And to claim the VMs is a stripped-down simplification would imply that linguistic description is simpler than pictorial depiction, but this does not seem entirely correct and would be difficult to substantiate. This is not a mistake or an example of sloppy artistry. What this is, instead, is a change from one method of communication to another. This is a code shift. It is an intentional change of methodology. And this results in a totally different visual appearance for the VMs representation of Earth. In the second area of comparison, the starry sky, the VMs cosmos does display a pattern of stars surrounding the Earth. However, the presence of blue paint in the VMs sky is much darkened with the use of black ink and the stars have short acutely angular arms, rather that the crossed lines of the asterisk pattern seen in the two examples from the original comparison. In addition, rather than being scattered in the surrounding space, the VMs stars are laid out in a line much like beads on a string. The effect is that the VMs stars appear to encircle the Earth, while the scattered stars in the other images appear to surround the Earth. Interestingly, Latin has two verbs,’cingere’ and ‘circumdare’ either of which can mean ‘to surround’ or ‘to encircle’. In French one word has either meaning. On the other hand, the VMs artist has clearly demonstrated in this play on words that there is a distinct visual difference between surrounded and encircled. The third part of the VMs comparison is the cosmic boundary. The meandering line of the VMs is somewhat more complex than the plain bands of the Harley 334 diagrams, and yet it pales in comparison to the elaborate cloud-band (Wolkenband) patterns of the two Oresme examples. The recovery of traditional terminology, from the example of the medieval heraldic lines of division, shows that this line pattern, in which the individual crests and troughs are bulbous, was called a nebuly line. The term ‘nebuly’ derives from the Latin ‘nebula’ meaning ‘a mist’ or ‘a cloud’. Similarly, in German, the nominal term ‘gewolkt’ derives from the word ‘Wolke’ also denoting ‘a cloud’. This confirms the potential cloud-based interpretation for this line pattern and is a basis for comparison with other cloud-based cosmic boundaries, as seen in BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23, BNF Fr. 1082, and some of Christine de Pisan’s work (e.g. Harley 4431). In addition, both the BNF Fr. 565 illustration and a fair number of the de Pisan illustrations make use of the elegant, scallop-shell pattern of cloud band construction, which follows the basic form of the nebuly line, with the addition of a short series of rounded arches protruding from the top of the crests and the bottom of the troughs, as if short sections of the heraldic engrailed line pattern were added in those places. And while BNF Fr. 1082 clearly shows a cloud band, it is one built on a very different artistic technique and has no line pattern. The thing that further connects the nebuly line of the VMs cosmos with the scallop-shell patterned cloud band of BNF Fr. 565 fol 23 is that both examples present 43 undulations. Both present the same ideological structure once again, despite significant visual differences. And it is not as if the VMs illustrations can’t provide better examples of similar artistic cloud-bands. The VMs Central Rosette has cloud-band pattern based on a scallop-shell design. There is even blue paint. The difference in the VMs representation is that the running arches of engrailed / invected line pattern run the entire length of the nebuly line structure – not just on the extremities, but in the interior parts as well.   So far, in the comparison of each of the three parts of the cosmic diagrams, there are hidden structural similarities between the VMs cosmos and BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23, which seem to be masked by clever options intentionally chosen for their visual diversity. Now we come to the fourth part of the VMS cosmos. None of these other cosmic diagrams has a fourth part. And, in fact, there may be some reason to question how and why an additional part might exist outside the cosmic boundary, but there it is regardless. This structure, unique to the VMs, consists of an apparent wheel-like circular band connected to the inner part, as previously described, by eight curved spokes. Both wheel and spokes contain a single line of written text. This structure seems to be a primary reason why Wilfrid Voynich’s associate, William Newbold, identified VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as an illustration of the Andromeda galaxy in an anachronistic attribution to Roger Bacon. To understand these bands of text better, let us reexamine them from the medieval perspective. Bands of text are frequently found in medieval illustrations, where these text banners serve to provide information about the contents of the illustration. They serve a function very similar to conversation balloons in cartoons, comic strips, and graphic novels. And in the same way, medieval text banners do not represent physical objects in the context of the illustration. Text banners are not ‘real’; they are not intended to be interpreted as being substantive; they are ephemeral. This was Newbold’s folly; mistaking the ephemeral for the real. Yet there they are as bold as brass. Their purpose, beyond the possibility of providing some explanation, is solely to create a clear and significant difference in visual appearance from any other ‘Biblical’ cosmos. And the reason for creating that difference is to prevent and to thwart any comparison based on visual appearance and to disguise the correspondence based on structural similarities specifically regarding the comparison of BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23 with the Voynich cosmos. In the first three parts of the cosmic comparison, the VMs cosmos presents a structure that matches BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23, but it does so in a manner that has a significant visual difference in each part. And in the fourth part, visual difference is the primary objective. And visual difference is intentional in all parts of this Voynich cosmos. The VMs cosmos is a clever parody. Each part is a trick, an alternative depiction. The first trick is a code shift, then words with dual meanings, then visual simplification combined with etymology, and finally, pure bluff – something created entirely for distraction. This last part  goes beyond alternative depiction. This is intentional deception.  The VMs will not display its secrets in overt visual similarities. It is necessary instead to know the structure and the rules set in place at the time, in order to discover that there are alternative visual representations for similar concepts. Perhaps this may open a way to those who can recognize the hidden structure and recover the traditional images and terminology, all of which were known to (and manipulated by) the creator of the VMs. The appearance of the VMs cosmos may seem striped-down, but more significantly it is the same structure given an alternative presentation. It is the same cosmic structure in disguise. This may seem far fetched to some on the basis of a “single’ cosmic example, but then there are the dual interpretations for the orientation of the blue-striped heraldic insignia on VMs White Aries, along with the associated elements and various examples of trickery: the use of an optical illusion, the use and misuse of the definitions and rules of heraldry, the use of heraldic canting based on another example of obscure terminology and intentional construction. That is the investigation of the Genoese popes.   Under the Big Tent Posted by: MarcoP - 08-10-2019, 03:10 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (42) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the title of a 2012 short but insightful blog post by Ellie Velinska. I believe it is one of the best contributions I have read about the Rosettes page. Ellie's interpretation requires to turn the South-East Rosette according to the orientation of the text. The result is a couple of tents. That interpretation explains several details in the illustration: The two larger rectangular areas, decorated by different patterns: the one on the left is split into four triangles joining at the centre; the one on the right is more simply decorated by parallel patterns; The six parallel cylinders that appear below the rectangles (three for each structure): this interpretation explains why they are cylindrical, why they are parallel and why they are below the rectangles; the cylindrical shape of the objects is particularly clear in the first and third from the left. A bronze object known as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was used to support the poles of the tents. This one is monumental, but I guess others were considerable smaller. Zhighris  could correspond to the thicker part of some of the poles near the ground; In both structures, the lower part of the rectangle features a parallel wavy area that extends towards the ground. This area appears to be in front of the upper part of the poles in the left structure and behind the upper part of the poles in the right structure. Following Ellie's idea, these areas represent fringes or tissue hanging at the site of the baldaquin. Here I have added colour and shades, trying to make the three-dimensional interpretation of the drawing easier to see. The image on the right is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Mughal Empire, 1590 ca).   baldachin.jpg (Size: 235.87 KB / Downloads: 376) Original illustration: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   SE.jpg (Size: 118.91 KB / Downloads: 366) It seems clear to me that the two baldachins have a symbolic function: the rest of the circle is filled with patterns (stars, mountains/clouds, unidentifiable "flows") that seem suggestive of a cosmological meaning. I like that Ellie's interpretations accounts for both structures. Some (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) have seen the top of the left structure as an illustration of the rivers of paradise, but this interpretation ignores the other details (the poles and the fringes) and the fact that two complex and similar structures appear side by side.    rivers.jpg (Size: 52.95 KB / Downloads: 368) Mark's recent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a cloister and a herb-garden has similar problems: the poles, the fringes and the similarity between the two structures remains unexplained. Also, the two baldaquins relate well with the much more bizarre structure in the central rosette: even here we see a flat horizontal surface supported by vertical "pillars" that in this case are shaped like "pharma" containers. Ellie's interpretation catches the overall 3D nature of the diagram. Besides discussing the rectangular structures, Ellie also notes that other rosettes look like pavilions seen from above. This is particularly clear in the South rosette, where one can see what could be ropes and knots holding in place a circular tent (or canopy).   knots.jpg (Size: 167.29 KB / Downloads: 483) This tent/canopy motif recurring in the Rosettes diagram could also be related with the "umbrellas" in Q13 (see discussion You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Karl Lehmann, on Jstor). The motif is traditionally related with heaven, and the presence of stars on several of the Rosettes canopies reinforces the possibility of a connection.   [split] Half-spaces Posted by: -JKP- - 08-10-2019, 03:50 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text - Replies (19) Searcher, there is something else going on in the VMS that is somewhat under-studied and which may have something to do with related tokens... There are half-spaces, and the half-spaces are frequently in places where two common tokens are adjacent. The problem with the various transcripts is that some ignore the half-spaces and some treat them as full spaces (mostly they are ignored but because of where they fall, I don't think they should be ignored because they occur in regular patterns). I had mentioned half-spaces some time ago. I have one transcript that tries to document the half-spaces (I had to create three transcripts before I felt really confident about being able to see them correctly). I haven't seen René's transcript, but he has mentioned half-spaces since then, so it might be reflected in his transcript, but you would have to ask him.   Are they ciboria? Posted by: Mark Knowles - 05-10-2019, 05:14 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (1) I think these specific objects are ciboria. A ciborium is basically a chalice with a lid, normally used for religious purpose, but not exclusively. Attached Files   Container 2.jpg (Size: 345.69 KB / Downloads: 86)   Container 1.jpg (Size: 151.8 KB / Downloads: 69)   Cannons versus Pipes Posted by: Mark Knowles - 05-10-2019, 03:55 PM - Forum: Imagery - Replies (56) It is often said that these illustrations on the 9 rosette page are of "pipes" while I think they are actually "cannons".(Claudette Cohen comments that there are often illustrations of artillery on maps.) If they are indeed cannons it illustrates an opposition between the top left rosette and the central rosette. Attached Files   Big Cannons.jpg (Size: 289.98 KB / Downloads: 406)   Small Cannons.jpg (Size: 88.32 KB / Downloads: 285)   Entropy Analysis of Questionable Text Sources by Example of the Voynich Manuscript Posted by: Torsten - 02-10-2019, 08:39 PM - Forum: News - Replies (9) New conference paper about the VMS: "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." The paper by Natsuki Kouyama and Mario Köppen is available at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  The authors conclude:  Quote:We have shown that VMS is not encrypted. We can also see that VMS mostly resembles natural language, however, comes closer to a programming language. Therefore, it appears as a unique piece of text, nevertheless. First Previous Next Last