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[split] Half-spaces
- [split] Half-spaces
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[split] Half-spaces
-JKP- > 08-10-2019, 03:50 AM
Searcher, there is something else going on in the VMS that is somewhat under-studied and which may have something to do with related tokens...
There are half-spaces, and the half-spaces are frequently in places where two common tokens are adjacent.
The problem with the various transcripts is that some ignore the half-spaces and some treat them as full spaces (mostly they are ignored but because of where they fall, I don't think they should be ignored because they occur in regular patterns).
I had mentioned half-spaces some time ago. I have one transcript that tries to document the half-spaces (I had to create three transcripts before I felt really confident about being able to see them correctly). I haven't seen René's transcript, but he has mentioned half-spaces since then, so it might be reflected in his transcript, but you would have to ask him. -
RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?
Searcher > 08-10-2019, 10:06 AM
(08-10-2019, 03:50 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher, there is something else going on in the VMS that is somewhat under-studied and which may have something to do with related tokens...
Is it not usual or normal for manuscripts? This is a question to all experts who study paleography and manuscripts.
There are half-spaces, and the half-spaces are frequently in places where two common tokens are adjacent. -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
Koen G > 08-10-2019, 10:58 AM
I split this into a new thread, seems interesting enough to discuss separately.
To me it has always looked like the VM script "should" be fluent, with characters linked or tightly packed as in cursive, but they have still been written separately. It's spaced as if it were a majuscule script like uncial, while it looks more like a minuscule.
This might just be because Voynichese is no existing script and the scribes had no custom of linking glyphs?
On the other hand, something like Carolingian minuscule doesn't always link characters either, but still doesn't use such large and somewhat variable half spaces...
Do both main scribal hands in the VM use half-spaces in the same way? -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
Koen G > 08-10-2019, 11:07 AM
Hmm, I just took a sample of Carolingian minuscule from the Wiki and already it contains what looks like half-spaces. Like the bottom line, after "por". Or in the middle of "quendam".
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RE: [split] Half-spaces
nablator > 08-10-2019, 01:01 PM
It is difficult to tell when a space is small enough to be insignificant, because we can't read the VMS. A vertical offset may be significant too as noted by ReneZ. The same is true for larger-than-necessary spaces, as they often look deliberate: have you noticed how the last glyph of a word is sometimes squeezed, horizontally, to make room for a larger-than-necessary space just after it?
So my transliteration distinguishes between quarter-spaces (barely visible or unsure), half-spaces, spaces, spaces and a half, nearly double spaces, double spaces (and more, like suspicious vertical offsets). -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
-JKP- > 08-10-2019, 01:44 PM
I believe it is possible to read the half-spaces. You just have to become extremely familiar with both the script and the structure.
They follow patterns. You will see them more often after certain characters and between certain blocks. If this were not the case, I wouldn't even have mentioned it. -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
-JKP- > 08-10-2019, 01:47 PM
(08-10-2019, 11:07 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hmm, I just took a sample of Carolingian minuscule from the Wiki and already it contains what looks like half-spaces. Like the bottom line, after "por". Or in the middle of "quendam".
I like this example, Koen. If one glances at it, it's confusing, but if one reads it, then the spaces (and their positions) suddenly take on a different "look" because you can see which ones are meaningful from the context.
Note how there's a tiny dot bewteen ...sem and veniente'. Maybe the original scribe or someone else found it confusing and added the dot to make the break more clear. -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
-JKP- > 08-10-2019, 02:59 PM
There are many examples, but I'll pick a simple one... if you look at 38v dain, and 39r, for example, on the first line of the second paragraph, you will see similar tokens...
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. daiin (line 1) dain (line 3). daiin (line 4)
are written with half-spaces as d aiin and d ain [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]and d aiin[/font]
Similarly, on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ...
qopchedy and opchekain
with half-spaces you get...
qop chedy and op chekain
Note how the half-break is in the same basic place. This is very frequently true.
Note also on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 2nd paragrah, lines 1 and 2, that eeedam and eees become eee dam and eee s if you record the half-spaces.
It took three transcripts before I felt I knew Voynichese AND the handwriting enough to recognize them. My fourth transcript records them.
Now, here's one that seems to be an exception in the pattern, but if you look closely at those that are anomalous, often you'll see the tail of the y from the line above it is in the way and so the extra space might be to avoid writing on top of the descender.
There are numerous reasons why I rejected the Takahashi transcript. For example, I saw eeee recorded as eee in several places (PLUS some of the ee are joined and I suspect they are to be considered as a unit and Takahashi didn't record this either), and daiin in different versions were recorded as though they were the same (not acceptable), but also because I noticed that spaces (FULL spaces) were sometimes ignored. With that many problems, I couldn't use it, so I made my own. -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
arca_libraria > 08-10-2019, 03:15 PM
I agree with pretty much everything in the thread. I think any analysis of the VMS text has to take into account the variation in the spaces between the tokens/vords, but we all know that it's much easier to distinguish the intention of each space, and each scribe's individual quirks and preferences when we're familiar with the script, glyphs, and the language.
The dots (medial punctae) in Caroline minuscule could be used in a few different ways. Sometimes scribes used them to break sentences down into clauses and grammatical units to help the reader; sometimes the dots were used as pause marks or breath marks for texts that were frequently read aloud; and sometimes as JKP said they were used to help make word separation less ambiguous. -
RE: [split] Half-spaces
-JKP- > 08-10-2019, 03:25 PM
Arca thanks, yes, for the different uses of the dots and for the reminder that reading aloud was very important in those days.
And... dots were used to mark numbers (since numbers were letters).