The Voynich Ninja

Hello Michael,

I recognize many people are criticizing your approach as producing output that is not Latin, although you claim the opposite, if I'm not mistaken.

Have you submitted the supposedly Latin texts that your method produces for independent review of experts in Latin language? I guess that would have been a good shortcut for deciding whether the method is worth the effort.

(20-07-2018, 07:25 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another useful test of solutions in general is to see what the most common words in the Voynich MS translate to. These are words like:
chol
daiin
chedy
aiin
qokaiin

If they translate to various different plain text words or phrases, or to words/phrases that are not expected to be very common in the plain text, then this is a very bad sign.

Thank you, Rene. Your suggestion seems simple and effective.

Two more possible checks:

1) Similarly to your proposal, one could see how the 10 most frequent words in the target language are represented.
For Latin, one can use the top of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
et 196733
in 141478
est 99336
non 90877
ut 71388
cum 61990
si 60477
ad 59421
quod 53420
qui 46829

2) Interpret a set of labels from a single diagram (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) or "recipe" (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

To add another test (my personal favourite) upon that, the translation of "aror sheey" (or "oror sheey") is also of particular interest.

When it comes to common words (those that are generated by Hoffmann's transliteration from Voynichese to the fragments resulting from the substitution chart), I get the impression he is saying some of the stubs are general purpose words.

For example, he referred to "re" as meaning "the thing".

If I understand correctly, he is saying that "re" is a stand-in for whatever "thing" is relevant to that phrase, whatever object relates to the other words in that phrase.

If that's true, then if you have something like "rat" in a phrase, then "the thing" might be cheese. If there is a boat in the phrase, "the thing" might be water or oars or whatever else subjectively fits.

Now, in principle, I'm not 100% opposed to this, because medieval scribes did use a lot of abbreviations that looked the same, but meant different things but... the context around them was rational and discernible and that is not the case here.

.
Since this is subjective, there isn't really any way to test whether this is a right or wrong interpretation unless there is a fairly high percentage of other words in the phrase that can be traced to Latin, and that is not happening. This is not even close to Latin. Even when there is the occasional Latin word like "walls" (plural), he has translated it into "rat" (singular).


At first, when he kept saying, "Don't use Google Translate," I assumed Hoffmann meant because it doesn't measure up to standards of a really GOOD Latin translation. Now I realize that wasn't he meant... What he means is, "Don't use Google Translate, because you have to use the ommm-mani-padme-ommmmmm part of your brain (or alternately a tin hat) to "tune in" on what it means," (in other words, it's not really Latin, it's Hoffmannese).

So he's saying we can't use google translate because it produces still too proper of a translation

He's expanding the stubs (or sometimes interpreting the stubs, like "re", into whatever thing he wants it to be) and that's something Google Translate can't do.

In some ways, his "method" is even more subjective than those proposed by Stellar.

(20-07-2018, 07:25 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another useful test of solutions in general is to see what the most common words in the Voynich MS translate to. These are words like:
chol
daiin
chedy
aiin
qokaiin

If they translate to various different plain text words or phrases, or to words/phrases that are not expected to be very common in the plain text, then this is a very bad sign.

I have not done this check.

I’m reminded that there was an informal test for proposed decipherments of Linear B, before it was recognised as early Greek, whereby the greater the number of unattested words a claimed solution contained which had to be explained away as names of unknown deities, the less likely it was to be correct.

Ventris’s passed.

---

(21-07-2018, 08:27 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He's expanding the stubs (or sometimes interpreting the stubs, like "re", into whatever thing it could be) and that's something Google Translate can't do.

Exactly. But he’s not given any indication of doing so by a consistent process, let alone one which would allow the plaintext to be recovered unambiguously.

I have recently mentioned the torture protocol; it starts on page 183. please find attached the first line of that page, and the translation with my own handwriting.

it reads:

te ea ineo ur m rere qui i eare te ea re a qui re eo uni re ad a qui ire ad a queo ur in rere ur meo meus areo ne omen


which means in german:

du dort ich beginne: beunruhige eintausend (=gründlich) glauben wodurch eins dort der Angelegenheit. Du gehe der Angelegenheit an, wenn doch der Angelegenheit dorthin alleine der Angelegenheit heran an, dass doch kommen heran an ich kann. Beunruhige inzwischen der Sache, beunruhige ich gehe meins ich dürste wahrhaftig das Vorzeichen


which means in english:

you there, I am going to start. worry (him) one thousend (=thoroughly), whereby (he) beliefs one there this matter. You approach towards this matter, if only this matter there alone, this matter close by, still move by I can. Worry (him) in the meantime this matter, worry (him) I move (to get) mine, I thirst truly the omen

to understand the meaning you have to phrase it into more modern words, however it becomes clear that those guys are going to start the torture. Remind that the end of a line in voynich does not mean the end of a sentence. I am currently translating that page completely, it takes some time, however I want to present my progress here soon. In all of the following pages a torture is described; on one page a thief is mentioned; whether all the pages are about the same victim I could not tell by now.

Best regards,
Michael

Today I completed page 183. Here, torture starts. I will post the complete page in latin, and present some important lines in german and english first. I also included a picture of that page, whith some key sentences. In summary they start the torture mildly just by worrying the accused, they bring a crucifix, however then start getting cruel. They also seem to enjoy the torture, as "use" can be translated with "to enjoy". First some of the key sentences:

1 te ea ineo ur m rere qui i eare te ea re a qui re eo uni re ad a qui ire ad a queo ur in re re ur meo neu sale o ne omen

1 Du dort ich beginne: beunruhige eintausend, glauben dieser eins dort der Sache. Du gehe der Sache an, denn dieser entgegen dazu einzig der Sache heran mit, dass doch kommen heran an ich kann. Beunruhige inzwischen der Sache, beunruhige ich gehe noch vor einer Opferung besprühen. Wirklich das Zeichen

it means: The torturer is going to start with worry the accused. "meo neu sale" means the torturer is using salt which is a ritual ahead of a sacrifice, and that is what the accused is ought to think. I had to modify my original translation, this one sounds better.

5 te a ea et eo al in et ur in re a qui ire ad al ire olet uni ile lare o a duri m re ____ 

5 du nach dort auch solange verschlimmere während auch beunruhige gleichzeitig an dieser gehen heran, hervorbringen kommen, es riecht ein einziger Scham: du werdest gebadet. 

it means: They smell at the pubic area, and the accused has to be bathed. "duri" means hard, however I could not read the line any further because of some patches there.

In line 6 "ur ira" rampage is used to further worry the accused. In line 7 "deus" is not god, but the crucifix. It is used later to harm (ve, line 8) the accused with one end (meta, line 8) of it. In line 16 the heel (tali) is burned. In line 17 incense is used against his face. They told him that he was a good boy when he was five. Here the last letter (s) is fused to the first of the next line (t), which means st (be quiet!) so it reads:  ... a qu erat eu st ea ...

They take care that the accused does not lose consciousness, and the journey can go on:

21 te ea iet a da limen ne oret a qu eo ad al eo ea iter e ...

21 du dort: er wird dahinschwinden, durch reiche die Schwelle nicht! er bete mit fünf solange heran, verschlimmere solange gehe die Reise weiter, ...

They are tethering the face:

23 neu muni os reo ea in re ea os re una o

23 noch befestige das Gesicht von dem Angeklagten! ...

Line 44 is for adults only. In line 46 they are kicking in his face. In line 49 they all make three crosses. In line 51 this show ends with:

51 muni ire ad a qui i ire nete a in re ad al i re ad a quer

51 befestige komme heran an dieser eins kommen der letzte Ton auf, inzwischen heran hervorbringe eins der sache heran mit klagen

It means: They fix him, and he, well, is going to dye. However I must translate the next page to see what has happened.

Here the complete latin translation of voynich page 183. I call it: The torture starts
 
1 te ea ineo ur m rere qui i eare te ea re a qui re eo uni re ad a qui ire ad a queo ur in re re ur meo neu sale o ne omen
 
2 meus uni rea em in re meo al re a te ea in re te i una o ea i te et a que a re deo ori ire te te ut ali in ea in re
 
3 re ur neu su ni i rea i a quer ea a reo ea in re ea os re at et a o al e use a reo a qui ___
 
4 o ea in re ad al in re al in re ad ali ire al ire eam et a o ea in et e ore
 
5 te a ea et eo al in et ur in re a qui ire ad al ire olet uni ile lare o a duri m re ____
 
6 a ea i ire meus ur ira ri in re ali re ur in re ad ali e omen ures re ad a quin re ____
 
7 deus ea ire uni eo ur in re ad ali ire ali iam re ad ea in re a o ur in re
 
8 meta eo ali re ea in re ali rete usa ri i ire ad eu deo ad a que tam ea ire a ve a a _____
 
9 a qui i a det ea i eo ali ire uni re o reum uni re ori et a que usu rimer a qui reo in re ali in e tete
 
10 neu meo a e usa ri a o ea eo a rata ea i quer ur in rea qu eum ur in re qui a o ur re a qui in re daseum
 
11 meta qui ire a que uso a o ur in re a reus ea ire ad at e usu ni re a qui re ad ali a ori re meo serrer
 
12 a e usu ri re ur os re a qui ire ad ali a ori in re ur et eum a quin re
 
13 te at a et uni at ad a quin re ali ire ad aret ea i os re ad a reus ea in re te eam re quur m re m eo ret a o
 
14 a reus uni reus ea in re ad ali ea re ad al re uni reo a o deum ea ire ea reus ea es re ad al re
 
15 ad a quin re ad ali ire ur eo ad a qui re ur reus
 
16 m una o una oret ur neu mea i ire te tali ire ur eo in re a te ea i a o a qui in re que a ire e al re
 
17 de turi re ad ali reri in re ad al i ire ea os re ad al eo a qu erat eu s ->
 
18 -> t ea o ea in re ad ali a o a reus ea ies re a qui ire o ur in re a reus ad a reus ad a qu eo ur in re a qui re d
 
19 a reum ea ire ad a re ur ire ad a reum ea in re ad a reus a qui a o oret al et eo or omen o t ->
 
20 -> er ea e usu nos re ad a reum uni re ad a reus ur in rea o at
 
21 te ea iet a da limen ne oret a qu eo ad al eo ea iter e al in re ad al rete ea in re al eo re ad ali in reo at
 
22 meo ur re a reus ur os an re ur meo ad ali in re ur in re ad a que de aes re ea i te et a que tat e ea re
 
23 neu muni os reo ea in re ea os re una o
 
24 que a al re ali eo ur in re ad al eo a qu erat e ea in re ad a que usu res rea qui re ne usa que a re al re
 
25 ne turi re ad a reus ea os ire ea ire reus ea in eo al ea ire ad a meus a reus a qui ire a o
 
26 a qui in re ali ire ad a qui ire uni rea o ea i in e turi reo a que m
 
27 ad ali ea re ali ire ad al i ire ori iam re uni ire ad ali ire ori a o que a ire ad al i ire ali ire ad al eo re
 
28 ni ur in re ad ali i ire meo reus a reum ea in re ad ali ire a que use usa o ea i ire ori in re                         ODER: i reme ore usa ?
 
29 ad ali i i ea re ur ali ire ad a ea ire ad ali ire ea eo ea in re
 
30 te ea a ore amen uni os re ad al ire a reum ur in re ea te ea re a te ea in re a qui ire ru rere a meo re
 
31 deum ea a o reum ea eo a reum ur os re ad al eo ur ne ture an re a reum ea quer
 
32 ali ire ur in re ad al in re ad al eo ur ies re a quin re ures re at eum
 
33 ad ali ire ea i ea re ad al ire ur os re ea a omen ad al eo re ur in rere qui in re ad a que  X odi in re
 
34 ur iam a uni re ea i ineo eum
 
35 ad ali iet ea e usa o eu se a ire reus uni a o ur in e usa dari in re reri in reo ea ire
 
36 al a a o ea in re ali in re ad al i in re ad ali ire ur mena qui re ad al i ire
 
37 te ea in re ad al i ire ad al i ame ut ad al ur re ad ali in re ad al eam re e ad quer uni re ur e or re
 
38 a qui ea in re ad al eu su res re ea os reo al i in re ea i os reo a reus ur in re ali ire
 
39 reri in rea dari i reo uni ire ad a queo uni mena qui ire
 
40 ad al i ire uni i a o ur os re uni a o ur amen a o eum a quin re ad a qui i reo a qu et a qu eta
 
41 ea i a o uni i ire ad a qui re a qui i eo a qui in re uni quur ali i a duri re ad al i in re ad a reo m eo
 
42 quur ire uni a o ea i a o ur re ea eo eo
 
43 qu et e a i eo a o uni ire ad a que o uni eo ad a que o uni in re ali ur in re ur ali re ad a reum
 
44 ani i ire ad ali ire uni re uni eo a quur in re
 
45 ad ali in re ad al i in re una o ur in et ea in re ad a qui in rea qui in rea ori a o o que ter
 
46 ea ori ire ad al i ire ea i a o ea at a o ur in re ad ali ire ad ali ire a o o eum ea ines
 
47 duri ire ali i a o o ea ire ad al eo reo ea i in rea o at eum
 
48 te a o et et o ur in re ad a qua o eum ad ali ire ad ali ire ur rea re a te ea i eo a ori ire det a
 
49 al i ire o te uso a o uni in ad ali ire uni eo ad ali in re ur in re ad al reo i i i deus et a
 
50 duri re ad al in re ad al eum ur mena dari ire ea in re ad ali ire ad al i reo ea in reo a quer
 
51 muni ire ad a qui i ire nete a in re ad al i re ad a quer

best regards,
Dr. Michael Hoffmann

Quote:M. Hoffmann: "meo neu sale" means the torturer is using salt

Oy. I wish you would stop calling it Latin.