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| Gallows as abbreviations |
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Posted by: LisaFaginDavis - 10-01-2023, 01:59 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (4)
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My keynote from the Voynich2022 Conference has been posted here:
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It was recorded and can be viewed here:
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In addition to walking through my scribal attributions, which won't be new to some of you, I've laid out in the lecture my ideas for interpreting [p] as an abbreviation for [ke], and [f] as an abbreviation for [te]. I won't go into the argument here, since it's explained in great detail in the paper and recording, but I did want to let you all know that I have posted a version of the Rene's IVTFF EVA transcription that shows how the text would appear if the purported abbreviations were expanded.
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For example, the first word of the manuscript [fachys] becomes [teachys]. I'm not a linguist or a cryptologist, so I can't offer an opinion about how/if this proposal is plausible from those perspectives; my argument comes from a scribal and paleographical perspective. I would really love to see how this idea might impact the statistical work of those of you doing computational analyses of the text. Feel free to download the expanded version and work with it. Please let me know how this impacts your work, if at all, and if you find evidence to support or contradict this proposal.
Thank you!
- Lisa
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| Antonio Francesco Gori |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 05-01-2023, 01:15 AM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Whilst playing about with chatGPL, it informed me that one of the owners of the Voynich manuscript was the 18th century monk, linguist, polymath and artist Antonio Francesco Gori. He's mainly known nowadays for being the bloke who stole Galilleo's finger from his casket and put it on display.
Anyway, the AI claims that amongst the owners of the Voynich was:
Quote:Antonio Francesco Gori: Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the manuscript from the Jesuit College in Rome. He is known to have made some attempts to decipher it, but he was also unable to make any significant progress.
I'd never heard of the bloke, so I investigated.
I asked the AI:
"What was the relation between Antonio Francesco Gori and the Voynich manuscript?"
It said:
Quote:Antonio Francesco Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the Voynich manuscript in the late 18th century. It is not clear exactly how Gori came into possession of the manuscript, but it is believed that he acquired it from the Jesuit College in Rome, where it had been held since the early 18th century. Gori is known to have made some attempts to decipher the manuscript, but he was ultimately unable to make any significant progress. The Voynich manuscript remained in Gori's possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son, who later sold it to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer.[font=Söhne, ui-sans-serif, system-ui, -apple-system, 'Segoe UI', Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'].[/font]
Well, Gori died in 1757 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), not 1796, so that's wrong. Anyway, I tried to find out more:
"Did Antonio Gori sell Wilfred Voynich his famous manuscript?"
Quote:No, Antonio Francesco Gori did not sell the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich. Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the Voynich manuscript in the late 18th century. It is not clear exactly how Gori came into possession of the manuscript, but it is believed that he acquired it from the Jesuit College in Rome, where it had been held since the early 18th century. Gori is known to have made some attempts to decipher the manuscript, but he was ultimately unable to make any significant progress. The Voynich manuscript remained in Gori's possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son, who later sold it to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer. Voynich is known to have been a collector of rare books and manuscripts, and it is believed that he acquired the Voynich manuscript in an effort to solve its mystery and add it to his collection. The Voynich manuscript remained in Voynich's possession until his death in 1930, after which it passed to his wife, who later sold it to the Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library at Yale University, where it has been housed since 1969.
One final attempt:
"Who told you that Antonio Gori's son sold Wilfred Voynich his famous manuscript?"
Quote:The information that I provided about the ownership history of the Voynich manuscript comes from a variety of sources, including historical records and academic literature about the manuscript. It is not clear exactly who sold the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich, but it is known that Antonio Francesco Gori, an Italian scholar, acquired the manuscript in the late 18th century and that it remained in his possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son. It is believed that the son sold the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer, at some point after that. Voynich is known to have been a collector of rare books and manuscripts, and it is believed that he acquired the Voynich manuscript in an effort to solve its mystery and add it to his collection. The Voynich manuscript remained in Voynich's possession until his death in 1930, after which it passed to his wife, who later sold it to the Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library at Yale University, where it has been housed since 1969.
I asked the AI a few more questions about Gori but it only referenced him in the context of the VM.
QUESTION: Where is the AI getting this Gori story from?
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| Distinguishing Characters |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 27-12-2022, 07:51 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I am working on a cipher at the moment and it has been very illuminating in lots of different ways. It got me thinking about the questions of corrections as I discussed in a different thread. I was just watching a video of Claire Bowern talking about the Voynich and she mentioned the subject of the difficulty of distinguishing between certain characters and deciding if in a given instance we have 1 or 2 different characters. I obviously was aware of this subject, but the video reminded me of it.
I have found the same problem in the cipher from the same time that I am deciphering. Sometimes it is not clear if two characters are the same or different. In fact this seems to be a common problem. So the Voynich is far from unique in this regard. I am not sure if there is a general method or approach applicable to ciphers of that time to discern the true underlying characters and avoid unnecessary duplication and incorrect conflation. I do think there is value in the exercise of trying to decipher old ciphers as it makes one consider simple common issues like these as well as more complex parallels.
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| Do f58r/f58v show Currier languages evolving? |
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Posted by: nickpelling - 26-12-2022, 09:02 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Hi everyone, hope you're all having a good holiday time etc,
I've recently been thinking/posting a lot about Q20's bifolio nesting/ordering, and as part of that have revisited the suggestion that f58r/f58v might have been the original first two pages of Q20. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
However, one thing that emerged from this is that the text on f58r/v is really rather unusual: as examples, you can look at “alal”, "alol", "olal", and "okal", all of which are to be found more often on f58 than on any other single folio. ("arar" is tied with f85r1.) Similarly, f58's fraction of "ed-" words is more than A pages (which have almost none), but much lower than typical B pages. Also quite unlike the Q13/Q20 B pages, f58 has only a single word where the first glyph is "l".
I'm therefore wondering whether f58 might turn out to be a key language page, kind of mid-point in the evolution between Currier A and Currier B.
Has anyone looked specifically at text oddities of f58? I've trawled the web but haven't found anything, but perhaps this is one of those topics that people here have seen things for themselves but not got round to mentioning.
Cheers, Nick
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| Using AI to get clues about the imaginery |
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Posted by: sunflowerleaf - 25-12-2022, 04:38 PM - Forum: Imagery
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I was asking AI questions that could be relevant to understanding the Voynich manuscript and I thought I should share some of the answers I got that I thought made sense.
Plants
For example, a medieval artist might depict a plant in a stylized or exaggerated way in order to convey a specific meaning or message. For example, a plant might be depicted with larger or more exaggerated leaves in order to symbolize abundance or fertility. Alternatively, a plant might be depicted with smaller or more delicate leaves in order to symbolize fragility or vulnerability.
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It is also important to remember that the techniques and materials available to medieval artists were very different from those available to artists today. As a result, the depiction of plants and other natural elements in medieval art may not always be accurate or realistic when compared to how they actually appear in nature.
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Overall, it is important to remember that the art and imagery of any given period reflects the values, beliefs, and cultural context of the time in which it was created. In the case of medieval art, plants and other natural elements were often depicted in a symbolic or allegorical manner, rather than being intended to be a realistic representation of the natural world.
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A plant might be depicted with more leaves or flowers than it actually has, in order to symbolize abundance or fertility. A plant might be depicted with larger or more exaggerated leaves in order to convey a sense of grandeur or importance. A plant might be depicted with smaller or more delicate leaves in order to symbolize fragility or vulnerability. A plant might be depicted with a specific color or pattern in order to convey a particular meaning or message. For example, a plant might be depicted with red flowers in order to symbolize passion or love, or with blue flowers in order to symbolize faith or devotion. A plant might be depicted with specific symbolic elements, such as fruit or flowers, in order to convey a particular meaning or message. For example, a tree might be depicted with apples in order to symbolize knowledge or temptation, or with roses in order to symbolize love or beauty.
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Overall, the depiction of plants and other natural elements in medieval art was often intended to convey specific meanings or messages, rather than being intended to be a realistic representation of the natural world
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A plant might be depicted in a stylized or exaggerated manner in order to convey a particular mood or atmosphere. For example, a plant might be depicted with twisted, gnarled branches in order to convey a sense of foreboding or danger, or with delicate, graceful leaves in order to convey a sense of beauty or serenity.
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Anatomy & some interconnections between medicine and astrology/astronomy
Medieval anatomical drawings were typically quite different from what we would consider a realistic representation of the human body today. This is because the understanding of anatomy during the medieval period was limited by the lack of access to human cadavers for study, as well as by the limited knowledge of physiological processes. Here are a few ways in which medieval anatomical drawings differed from reality: Stylization: Medieval anatomical drawings were often highly stylized, with simplified and exaggerated features. This was often done to convey a specific meaning or message, or to make the illustration easier to understand. As a result, these drawings did not accurately represent the structure and function of the human body. Inaccurate depiction of organs and systems: The organs and systems of the human body were often depicted in a simplified or stylized manner in medieval anatomical drawings. For example, the heart might be depicted as a simple geometric shape, rather than a complex organ with specific functions. Lack of detail: Medieval anatomical drawings often lacked the level of detail and precision that we would expect in modern anatomical illustrations. This was due in part to the limited knowledge of anatomy at the time, as well as the fact that these drawings were often created for educational or instructional purposes, rather than as scientific illustrations.
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Another reason is that the purpose of these drawings may not have been to create a scientific representation of the body, but rather to illustrate certain concepts or ideas related to medicine or anatomy. For example, a drawing might depict the body in a stylized or symbolic way in order to convey the location of a particular organ or to show the relationship between different parts of the body.
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During the medieval period, many scholars believed that the structure and function of the human body were a reflection of the larger order of the cosmos. This belief was based on the idea that the universe was a harmonious and interconnected whole, and that the human body was a microcosm of the larger cosmos. As a result, the study of anatomy in the medieval period was often seen as a way of understanding the structure and function of the cosmos as a whole. Scholars who studied anatomy might also study other subjects such as astronomy, mathematics, and philosophy in order to gain a better understanding of the larger order of the universe. For example, some medieval scholars believed that the structure and function of the human body were governed by the same principles that governed the movement of the stars and planets. As a result, the study of anatomy was seen as a way of understanding the underlying principles that governed the cosmos as a whole. Similarly, the study of anatomy was often seen as a way of understanding the natural world and the relationships between different living beings. Scholars who studied anatomy might also study botany, zoology, and other subjects in order to gain a better understanding of the natural world and the interconnections between different living things.
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In the "Canon of Medicine," Avicenna wrote extensively about anatomy, including descriptions of the structure and function of various organs and systems in the human body. He also provided detailed descriptions of different types of tissue, such as muscle, bone, and nerve tissue. In addition, Avicenna made important contributions to the understanding of the cardiovascular system, including the role of the heart in circulation and the function of the blood vessels.
Galen made significant contributions to the study of anatomy, including descriptions of the structure and function of various organs and systems in the human body. He also developed a system for classifying different types of tissue, such as muscle, bone, and nerve tissue. In addition, Galen made important contributions to the understanding of the cardiovascular system, including the role of the heart in circulation and the function of the blood vessels.
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Astrology and herbology were often interconnected in the medieval period because many people believed that the movements and positions of the stars and planets had an influence on the natural world, including on the properties and medicinal uses of different herbs. As a result, astrology and herbology were often studied together as part of a broader understanding of the natural world and the relationships between different living beings.
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In the 1400s, the study of celestial bodies was closely interconnected with the study of anatomy. This was due in part to the influence of the Ptolemaic model of the universe, which held that the Earth was at the center of the universe and that the celestial bodies (such as the Sun, Moon, and planets) revolved around it. According to this model, the celestial bodies were thought to have a direct influence on the human body and its functions. In the Islamic world, scholars such as Avicenna (also known as Ibn Sina) wrote extensively about the relationship between celestial bodies and anatomy. In his medical encyclopedia, the "Canon of Medicine," Avicenna discussed the idea that the movements of the celestial bodies could affect the health and well-being of individuals. He also described the role of the planets in the development and functioning of the human body, including their influence on the various organs and systems. In addition to Avicenna, other scholars in the Islamic world and Europe also wrote about the relationship between celestial bodies and anatomy. For example, the astronomer and mathematician Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) developed a theory about the relationship between the orbits of the planets and the proportions of the human body. Overall, the study of celestial bodies and anatomy were closely interconnected in the 1400s and beyond, with scholars seeking to understand the relationship between the movements of celestial bodies and the functions of the human body.
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Medicine: Astrology, astronomy, and herbalism were closely connected to medicine in the 1400s because astrologers and physicians believed that the movements and positions of celestial bodies influenced the human body and could be used to predict and treat illnesses and conditions. (would further explain why those weird drawings are anatomical. Since they often used animals to learn about anatomy it could possibly be based on animals but applied to humans, it could explain why there's random drawings of animals, assuming they aren't purely symbolic.)
Anatomy and nymphs
In the context of a medical drawing, it is possible that nymphs were used to symbolize certain aspects of the human body or of health and wellness. For example, a nymph might be depicted alongside a drawing of the reproductive system to symbolize fertility, or alongside a depiction of the circulatory system to symbolize the flow of life-giving fluids throughout the body.
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It is possible that nymphs were used in medical drawings as a symbolic representation of the circulatory system, which is the system of vessels and organs that transports blood throughout the body. In this context, the nymphs might be depicted as representing the flow of blood through the body, or as representing the vital role that the circulatory system plays in maintaining health and wellness.
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The depiction of nymphs in medical drawings from the 1400s would likely have been intended to serve a symbolic or allegorical purpose, rather than to provide a literal depiction of the circulatory system.
Jars
(My theory that they were not real jars but rather symbolic drawings in which the content was symbolically portrayed in the shape of the jar, more details could for example symbolize higher value or status)
The shape of the jar might symbolize the nature or properties of its contents. For example: A jar with a round or bulbous shape might symbolize that it contains a liquid or a substance that is soft or pliable. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are abundant or plentiful. A jar with a narrow or elongated shape might symbolize that it contains a solid or a substance that is more structured or rigid. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are concentrated or focused in some way. A jar with a wide or open shape might symbolize that it contains a substance that is easily accessible or available. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are welcoming or inviting. A jar with a tall or upright shape might symbolize that it contains a substance that is uplifting or elevating. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are dignified or noble.
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Yes, it is likely that people in the medieval period used the idea that the physical appearance of a jar can symbolize the nature or properties of its contents. Jars were commonly used in the medieval period to store and transport a wide variety of substances, including food, water, and various other materials, and the physical appearance of the jar might have been used to provide clues about the contents of the jar.
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Jars with feet might be used to keep the jar off the ground and to prevent it from coming into direct contact with dirt or moisture. This could be useful for jars that contain perishable or delicate substances that might be damaged if they come into contact with the ground or if they are exposed to moisture.
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| Objective statistics about VMS text |
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Posted by: ThomasCoon - 17-12-2022, 01:16 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Hello all, long time no see!
Please use this thread mainly to submit your objective (i.e. numbers-based) statistics about VMS glyphs, vords, and text.
If we gather all the facts together, we may be able to reverse-engineer the process that generated them. (Please feel free to speculate about that here too.)
Here are my statistics using Takahashi transcription:
- <l> appears 10,518 times in the VMS. In 54% of occurrences (5693 cases) it appears before <o>, and about 30% of times (3091 cases) before <a>.
So, 84% of the time that <l> appears in the VMS, it is either in an <al> or <ol> combination.
- <r> appears 7456 times. In 3244 cases (43.5% of the time), it is in an <ar> combination, and in 2820 cases (37.8%) it appears in <or>.
So, 81.3% of the time, <r> is either in an <ar> or <or> combination.
- <y> appears 17,655 times. In 14,515 cases, it is word-final.
So, 82.2% of the times that <y> appears in the VMS, it is word-final.
- There are 36,137 vords (tokens) in the Takahashi transcription. There are 14,515 vords with a final <y>.
Therefore 40% of vords in the VMS end in <y>.
- <d> appears 12,973 times. In 6834 cases (52.7% of the time), <d> is followed by <y>.
- When <dy> appear together (6834 times), it is word-final 88.8% of the time (6071 times)
- <k> appears 10,934 times, but in 6069 cases it is in the combination <ok>.
So <k> is preceded by <o> 55.5% of the time.
- <t> appears 6944 times in the VMS, but in 3856 cases it is in the combination <ot>.
So <t> is preceded by <o> 55.5% of the time.
- <q> appears 5423 times in the VMS, but in 5383 (99.3%) of cases it is word-initial.
- <q> appears 5423 times in the VMS, but in 5290 (97.5%) of cases it is in the combination <qo>.
- <qo> appears 5290 times in the entire VMS, but in 3116 (58.9%) times the next letter is <k>, and in 1130 cases (21%), the next letter is <t>.
So 80% of the time that <qo> appears, it is in a <qok> or <qot> combination.
- <ain>, <aiin> and <aiiin> appear word-initial over 500 times but are never once line-initial.
Your turn! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a text extractor.
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| Quire and bifolio patterns for strangely-aligned text |
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Posted by: pfeaster - 11-12-2022, 05:59 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I was struck by Lisa Fagin Davis's remark during the recent Voynich Manuscript conference about the apparent organization of scribal production by bifolio. I knew that each bifolio tends to be associated with a particular scribe (or occasionally two), and that when a quire contains text by multiple scribes, their contributions tend to occupy different bifolios. In the past I think I've assumed this was a sign of bifolios being reshuffled at some point (since there's ample evidence of that happening in some cases): i.e., that Quire 4 contains a single Scribe 2 bifolio because that bifolio had originally been somewhere else. But the alternative idea that each bifolio was created separately, and that the results were subsequently assembled into quires, seems interesting, and I was curious to see if there were any other patterns (besides scribal attribution) that might point in this direction, or might shed further light on what was going on production-wise ("bifolio as a functional unit"?).
Here's one, perhaps: in both of the first two quires, strange alignments appear specifically on both recto pages of the outermost bifolio. In Quire 1, both You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have the final words of all their paragraphs aligned to (or near) the right margin: four cases on f1r, three on f8r. In Quire 2, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. each contain one paragraph starting with [p] that has a centered final line, along with one or two other paragraphs starting with [t] that don't. There are no other cases of similarly strange alignment to be found in either quire: just on the two recto pages of each outermost bifolio.
I think it's fair to hypothesize that pages with similarly strange alignment are somehow related to one another and that related pages are likely to have been written consecutively -- though of course neither point is guaranteed.
If so, that might suggest that:
1. The outermost bifolios of Quire 1 and Quire 2 were composed distinctly, in some sense, from the rest of their quires.
2. The recto pages of those two bifolios were also composed distinctly from the verso pages. (Note that the strange formatting of one recto page wouldn't have been visible as a model during the preparation of the other recto page.)
3. As bifolios were assembled into quires, somehow these two -- with similar characteristics -- both ended up on the outside of their quires, and right at the beginning of the quire sequence (or at least what's now the beginning).
If we follow this thread further into the manuscript, we continue to find other potentially interesting patterns in the locations of strangely-aligned text at the ends of paragraphs.
In Quires 3 and 4, each of the outer two or three bifolios contains one recto page with strange alignment, but alternating between the first and second recto page -- never both, and never the same one twice in a row. Then, further in towards the center of the quire, one additional bifolio in each of these quires instead displays strange alignment on one or both of its verso pages, rather than on a recto page.
Quire 3:
- [Alternating recto pages:]
- Outermost bifolio = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / f24r / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Second bifolio in = f18r / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- [Switch to verso:]
- Third bifolio in = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / f19v / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / f22v
- Innermost bifolio = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. [no strange alignment]
Quire 4:
- [Alternating recto pages:]
- Outermost bifolio = f25r / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Second bifolio in = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / f31r / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Third bifolio in = f27r / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- [Switch to verso:]
- Innermost bifolio = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / f28v / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In Quire 5, the outermost two bifolios each have one page with strange alignment (f40v, f39r), this time with the "inner" case being on the second recto page and the "outer" case being on the second verso page.
Quire 6 is trickier to assess. In the outermost bifolio, f48r has a centered final line that seems to be avoiding an illustration, but the preceding line is also centered in a way that the illustration wouldn't have required. The second bifolio in has strange alignment on both You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- it's unusual for "mixing" recto and verso. The third bifolio in has strange alignment on f46v, of a peculiar kind (the seventh line of the paragraph is split into two halves with a gap between, with the second half establishing the left margin for the rest of the paragraph -- partly to avoid an illustration, but that wouldn't explain what's happening in the seventh line specifically). If these cases all "count" as unusual alignment, then this quire would follow a pattern of alternation vaguely like that of Quires 3 and 4.
There's no similarly strange alignment in Quire 7. Quire 8 is missing its three inner bifolios but has strange alignment on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a centered line at the end of one paragraph). That brings us to the end of the opening botanical section, which is as far as I'm going to go here.
Observations for Quires 1-8:
1. When a single bifolio contains two pages with strange alignment, they're always on opposite faces of the membrane (front/back), and they're usually on the same side (right or left), with the pairing f43r/f43v being the only exception to the latter rule. No bifolio has strange alignment on more than two of its pages, or on any two pages that would have been simultaneously visible during writing.
2. Within a quire, any verso pages with strange alignment usually appear further inward than any recto pages with strange alignment, with Quire 5 being the only exception (f39r is further inward than f40v).
3. Within a quire, two adjacent bifolios never contain a page with strange alignment in the same position (i.e., first recto, first verso, second recto, or second verso); and two pages with strange alignment never face one another.
4. Some of the bifolios with strange alignment are attributed to Scribe 1, and others to Scribe 2.
For the cases of "alternation" (e.g., the outer three bifolios of Quire 4), I wonder if there's any consistency as to whether the pages with strange alignment appear on the hair side or the flesh side of the vellum, and whether alternate bifolios might have been inverted to bring hair sides adjacent to hair sides and flesh sides adjacent to flesh sides. I understand it's a tough call to make as to which side is which, given how the vellum was prepared, but does anyone have any data about this?
Thanks for indulging this out-on-a-limb speculation -- I'm just trying to think of what other interesting consequences bifolio-level production might have had.
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