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Could there be more documents written in voynichese ? |
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Posted by: VoyBear - 22-03-2025, 04:45 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (31)
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Were the archives of Collegium romanum (the last pre-voynich owner as I understand) ever queried for more voynichese related documents? What if the manuscript is just a book explaining voynichese grammar and all the illustrations are just allegories for its intricacies lol.
But seriously, if someone made such a good job at making sure that nobody unqualified will understand something they wanted to share, would they really do so within the location of one community ? Im assuming that when there is no need for the information to travel long distances, there is also less motivation for security of the transfer. If the six or more scribes who wrote the VM all lived in one place at one time, and they all knew the same info they put into the book, would they really be motivated to do so with such a centuries-of-attempts-defying level of security, if the information wasnt meant to travel through space and time ? If the members of the community which wrote the manuscript really all lived in place at one time, wouldnt it be much easier for them to simply hide their valuable information and only access it during initiation of new members since the current ones already knew well what they themselves wrote and could afterall explain verbally ?
But it was more or less proved that the manuscript was intended for repeated use. Given that the book is small (not sure on this but werent medieval books usually larger than VM ?), fitting perfectly even into womans hands and also that it is probable it had a wood cover, the more likely it seems fit for traveling. If the information that the book contains was meant to be shared locally, they probably wouldnt need to spend such an effort to assemble the folios into a book when they could simply keep it as scrolls which are cheaper and easier to hide.
Also, it just doesnt seem likely to me that a community of 6 or more people would write this book at one time and place, if each one of them knew all the info that the book contains. There are cases of savant polymaths, but those people are rare. Usually, one is expert at one subject at a time, be it botany, astrology, balneology, pharmacy or literature. If all the scribes or non-scribing members of the community lived in one place, they could simply teach each other their respective craft without the need for making a secure and scalable means of transporting the data throughout the times and locations of other members. This would mean that the manuscript traveled across places of residency of each of the experts who kept adding to and possibly copying the current data.
Another thing is that no christian church, or any other medieval authority tried to destroy the manuscript, given that it often reached higher levels of society, it seems that nobody has ever considered the manuscript dangerous or heretical. If there was no danger in writing about bathing ladies, plants and stars, then why encipher it ? There could be many reasons, but the one which works in this scenario, is that the authors were actually embarassed sharing the information in the manuscript. Either because they were men who wrote about naked ladies performing health rituals (which was probably too gay even for a time when men wore tight yoga pants), or they were the naked ladies themselves.
Thats why I think the VM could have traveled between nunneries where each expert nun added her piece of research in a possibly different dialect or language (latin for speakers of other than the biggest languages back then whose speakers wrote in their native language), which would explain why we see variations of text structure between individual entries, with seemingly the same type of encoding which rearranges the symbols in some sort or which only serves as a reference to a key text (we all know that substitution cipher is out of the play by now).
That brings me to another possible clue, the bible. Did anyone ever tried finding correlations between VM and the bible ? All nuns had it or had access to it, it contains enough words to assemble a language out of and alot of the nuns probably had the bible memorized so well that they didnt have much trouble decoding the text. So what if its the key text ?
Finally, if the VM manuscript really traveled between places, accumulating knowledge, I think its more likely than not that there were more books like this. We just havent found them yet.
Thanks to everyone willing to talk about this and or correct me about stuff.
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| Doireann's theory of Lepontic/Cisapline Celtic |
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Posted by: newamauta - 21-03-2025, 07:49 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (25)
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Hello all! I'm a new user just learning the ins and outs of this forum so please excuse me if I'm posting in the wrong place.
I wanted to discuss Doireann's theory of the Voynich manuscript being written in phonetic Cisalpine Celtic with a "leptonic variation syntax". She believes the author might have been Christine De Pizan. She has been in contact with Lisa Fagin Davis and claims her translation "meets the criteria" that Dr. Fagin Davis laid out in her 2020 paper. There is a YouTube video in which she discusses her translation and she's currently looking for help from more fluent Irish speakers.
Podcast feature about her translation efforts (Around the 35 minute mark she starts to explain her theory)
I personally don't believe the author is Christine De Pizan (not sure if I should get into that) but I thought her theory of Irish/Celtic was interesting. It seems she's proposing something along the lines of a substitution cipher and claims there are not multiple languages within the text. What do you all think? Opinions on if this theory holds any merit?
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| A Cipher Thought Experiment |
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Posted by: trajan117 - 21-03-2025, 02:37 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (36)
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Hi, folks.
I just created an account here, so I don't know if anyone has done something similar to this before (also, let me know if this is the appropriate place to put this post). I just did a little experiment to create a cipher with only 13 glyphs and restrictive positional variation. I intend this as a fun exercise to see what kind of cipher I would come up with given these restrictions. I am including the cipher text in this post with no indication of how the cipher works, the language it is written in, or what the text itself says. I will tell you what languages I know: English (naturally), Latin, Ancient Greek, and Ancient Egyptian. Apologies if there are any errors. I tried my best to make it as clean as possible. Note that | indicates a line break. It isn't intended as a glyph. The glyphs used are G, K, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, /, +, and 4.
GTMOLRR/O MTNO/S NO/S LO TMO/ST OMP 4TO 4POLO/SNOLPNOLRNO/TGS OMP 4TNO/S KOLTMO NO KLONR LOR/RMOLOTGS SMOO GT/OGK MTNO/S KRMOLO/TMO/S SOMRO | NPMO/RGS LR/OGR GK/ORLT/S NO LOMR ONRLRGS LT/ONOGR MTNO/S MP/OR MPGONR 4O GT/OPMO GS/OGO TRMOLO/T MTNO/S LO/S MPGONR+ | 4OMP GS/OGO 4TLONPMO LOR/RMOLOTGS LPMOONR LOPRMO TO KRLO/KK MTNO/S KOLTMO MTONR NO LOMR LO MP/OOLR KOMR/PLO/RMOLT TO MTO | KLRMONPMO/R SKRNOLPMO GKT/O GK/ROTMO MTO NP/OGSNRO/TMS MRLONRGO/SKRNO/PT MTLO/T GK/OGOLRTNR/T SGO/RPRNO/SMO 4RO | MTO/RMO LO/RMO SMRLO/RT PMO/OPLRMO GTMO/RMO
I will come back with the solution in a few days if no one solves it. I won't indicate if someone is on the right track. But if someone is able to crack it, I'll respond. I hope someone solves it! 
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| Let us count the days |
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Posted by: 008348dc760f858fd668476b75fb6f - 16-03-2025, 10:27 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (16)
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The Zodiac Section Overview
The Voynich Manuscript (VMS) contains an astrological section featuring 10 zodiac signs. Two signs appear to have been removed from the original sequence. The remaining sequence begins with Pisces and continues through to Sagittarius.
Astrological images of this type and era typically convey specific information: the day and month of the year, degrees within the zodiac ecliptic, religious holidays, celestial timings, and similar data. This makes the zodiac section a promising candidate for locating numerical systems, as such charts essentially function as organized lists of numbers.
Visual Structure of the Charts
A review of the zodiac images reveals a series of characters, predominantly female with some male figures. Many (though not all) have their hands reaching toward or connecting with stars. These figures are arranged in concentric circles, with "words" assigned to their star connections as well as appearing above and below them in many cases.
It's worth noting that the month names written in these zodiac charts appear inconsistent with standard astrological knowledge. Zodiac signs do not correspond directly to specific months—each sign spans portions of two months. This suggests the month names may be later additions by someone with limited astrological expertise.
Identifying Numbers in the Zodiac Charts
My approach was to search for numbers by considering what information would typically appear within each zodiac sign. The Pisces/Aries charts seemed particularly interesting since Pisces marks the end of the zodiac year while Aries marks the beginning. This boundary condition should reveal distinctive numerical patterns.
What numbers would we expect to find here? Pisces occupies the 330-360 degree range of the zodiac, and we know the Julian year in the 15th century consisted of 365 days. Therefore, the numbers from 330-365 could represent either degrees or days of the year.
After broader examination of the zodiac tables, it became apparent that the female figures likely represent days of the year, while their connections to stars represent degrees in the zodiac cycle. This hypothesis is supported by the numerical proportions: there should be more women than star connections since there are more days in the year (365) than degrees in a circle (360). Indeed, each zodiac sign typically contains 28-30 female figures, corresponding to the number of days in that month, and careful study reveals that not all have star assignments.
Analysis of Aries and Pisces Charts
Returning to the Aries chart on folio 70v1, the innermost circle lacks "words" while all other circles contain them. This suggests the beginning of a sequence where connections from preceding zodiac signs would otherwise appear. This positioning makes sense given the manuscript's ordering, indicating this folio is likely the first in a new sequence.
In the Pisces chart (folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), an interesting arrangement of female figures appears on the inner circle around the 10 o'clock position. Two figures face each other, with one joined to a third by what resembles a "pipe" or channel forming what looks like the number "0".
![[Image: ALs6j_Gv5yoBWOku4udgJiiMhcfORVedCfGWSarC...1278-h1306]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fife/ALs6j_Gv5yoBWOku4udgJiiMhcfORVedCfGWSarC2PMTmpYFZDWJ9tOUSdy2pjPpZcncMe_JsztEcmuA2odMmlQ9Q3t20RupgTJQmqKcq3A4kpmfASmHtFKJJ8IQaK2agoJLcHahawMS67N1XHQHoaaLoyp6PFH5adzpW2uqhh_f51cwCBNOwrSPX9cDDxLshjMD8_bIYIbItBKXLBSb4NeWGqXyf-7O5uJENN_-1lFhPcEK2JDsSkpv6dthjUhr2VQerK5onPanxcLV4djRE9b6M8qnNr5eXefL5oaRvLSPoMksL9FBRE-aatcy_TBmzg_9Je5JdBcCs1gaL7dkythlYtUro6yhepJjpJ7wO79SMf2yg3Jc8oKCDaZ6jKiJrGeBedSs8FYCf9llFZgSyLytRo5BwPSO3fG0oMbJ88VbjNwgouzKulzpn2Z7fbfimiL5Wpp3wPy-Khd0mIDtZYuvrty1PwFLDlRNdYSWn4X6UIr_kOJQkoWdOpCd60LFhbdjQc0oCjDmqlOoKu9pKhjMyM-NBJIz82DEcUMwvBCdnW9RfOW7aSTpf1xdRleWYvV_Vk-7m8wcohTf2cPmP-Z9IhU1kBtxyYHn7_xUcbPmKSMxoVdXnmJToJkk0WzbptLIPLHagDJOSSv1g6LEzuY9s0QHjpZwTupSLFmn4HzHYF2BNDKN1yVc_OJiQ1TvvM-APueKIIHhmkgblEbX2qkRi1JJ0smPYEIf2_-K-0_ufWnbtvUNL1JDvPjWE6AV_gR64La3tJ8VtZ1msNBgqIyhhfl6whdGT3HUbVeoaaPd7PIDc3HUlCql_rN8OhE-TeNriyWSBRpfmQK2P4ciUvhWZr7dojm-qdPYDEcGMs2BSzjUj2UBdOuorN9h8PjLc3LxnLvUsF-wnUcTgFmibwq_aN7ALUDouSEddufjwC0O5lCQz5UEVivJyeXy_TN2y-Hz3gm2R64Xia3XqXz4wP0UXcHvlJz-RmnYR8o8koV6IMb_MzTJy_yK6wleHrb6GiR3rNJjaxGzQvNM_WOFPhCePa-837Ip9oAVUS6PNKcKnGk9WfmpX-Nr2NT4t3tBkY-6_SavWMTIPB8pO8Z-OR4sOU7khtm7b2pXs8TSTpvqnF72J5VrX2Kx8lay7rN1q_JYBaVTJrVAWfX6GAnGSu9QxSS-nBpyHsQuS4uxkjkhIOZySYRtMx8Px6ZEJuRCYFSjZs9JbFTdF_PYIi0ZWatKo9vtZAFoyh67sOo2iJ-2qZOQt_iiuXau_qZhZmsD0HIdf_xVhjn4gm1waK_jjcppMFmSAlcbfrAidTbx0Z_Th84Lh-oT1g2WNqiciHmSX4oP_spw3uILfeWrvf0F1SJ1NqwcT_i4QK2eP_9e-Gfa9nq45dOlNHip4E4dEAFR-MLqejgxDg8IgZhD5jN0STFObvWjmMor9XIMrT072nuUJ7WbGAvhGB6NTHU-sBpsIkdNYNmIPVLYWUXM25tNeLtmM52SmGhzcwCLGrqrmIiI2ofCJev2Vfo2sOGAU6Dp4fxh4Wf3DduHPLPXZtser0msvRf90eRZN-PsU6ohrSAZxyojNFlZYnqf7hZhj5-5_vqlr4dn3vwZF8RgGo17RQ=w1278-h1306)
Decoding the Numerical System
The two facing figures have the "words" "otaral" and "otalar" associated with them. This pairing is intriguing because they contain identical characters but with the 'r' and 'l' positions swapped. Considering what numbers in the expected sequence of 330-365 might appear with such a relationship, 356 and 365 emerged as promising candidates.
If we take "otalar" to represent 356 and count the 8 women clockwise around the inner circle, we reach "otaral" at the 365 position. This provides some validation that these pairs might indeed represent those numbers. 365 represents the last day in Pisces and the end of the Zodiac year. I assume that's why the "pipe" connection looks like a "0", a new start.
A Roman Numeral-Like System?
This pattern suggests a positional numbering system similar to Roman numerals, where the value depends on evaluating preceding and subsequent numbers as part of a whole. Characters' values can be modified by their neighbors and cannot be interpreted in isolation. This might explain why many VMS words have an overabundance of specific characters in certain positions and why the text doesn't conform to typical European language patterns.
Proposed Number Mapping
Based on this analysis, I propose the following mappings: - otaral = 031514
- otalar = 031415
The key assumption is that numbers are treated as column pairs that must be summed to derive their final values:- 0+3=3
- 1+5=6
- 1+4=5
- Total: 365
This system functions similarly to Roman numerals conceptually, without being Roman numerals. Indeed it may just be a columnar representation of digits.
Central Pisces Symbol Analysis
Looking at the center of the Pisces sign, we see two fish connected to a star with the word "otolal" (note: the Voynichese site lists this as "otylal," but closer examination suggests this is an error).
![[Image: ALs6j_Eq4Dwxr2FnGQeA0_GK3GbYqJOmE3eMmwqZ...1278-h1306]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fife/ALs6j_Eq4Dwxr2FnGQeA0_GK3GbYqJOmE3eMmwqZQNaPwUb7pg_033OBgDLW_nbtywxABrhmvmIHY84_4tQnEcP6xteQ_U5MWqg0PeAs_DfbAPfnjyvKpr5eKEVxhzi2evC4cen1xpxRwj-zDxMxFFLdFc6AmD2590EEWi-BbeLG-Hyoo52BzsKQqH8psrr0H22SxqASFjfSh88w-aUR46SchYiGH7nBlQMGWvp5xrjECEqP5dmOL5HwmYU5Lj6mM0Y_WHKu55iepXBWbO-Imegcl4wsQSQZvutUzvsSQ3YRxRPmY1gPkItL3xo1xmrbyTHvsoE2Mz9RoU-0M1LFwSmhHAPbKSeXBEeihIhDo2lxItUizgkpr124G8RKz4Ri46bMb-gq7taZTBI61MadTjobwyaWjiVuOdlxS9eFsnczSJ1uzyd_x0aXe44aQqnpi10sxpns_KJ-6ShToy02bIdu_JDh_0yKLfMPjqoWdA-hn48EuBeTvxLixiEQ4TjWwCjZQDI_Dw2djePHrLHAi9swRTZinQldi0oA4B3Bh0hAr_8DxMgWKM5Y6faCBGx1gkcL2floI5fkdnUp-AQLa2b57rwcoxNgkLbK2VwLQqmkntQnt6xkBLkKluj16AyWPqJpsFe0cmw1mkTgz0tVrZNJp_HfVQdEyFndwlDP9Wdodb8rUrqsq5-WFp8BZ9tbLaOmXj7MYggoWqU371VAI0XKcetPl5dRu4g7GLdEWeT-zvKQAI9d6Vzb1Io7veUrRXROEJglHvLhO1e_gq1wVyaJoZPlit3WwqP1-E96MB5GMETD296uubBnTSevg3QTSehSwizjydt57D0QOC_j93LXPO4CWhuu1U4Zwap-c7yXYHyFAhqN_bchvG2CpTcT51QGE30pxv_R0lq6L27oEAE1etZ7azEvt_Hc76XB_GAt0DU2NVfTWgA2MoDLeWsUh-36jnVGRsuCOMv6n4JaodItPPBKV6cO0oM_j7UqSUuU1kzPIkK4AVDW2i68-fMR7BmjybRctF01nviD3jEsIEPA70kxTxXKpeKIkFzBaFKJ_8QCYm6FyU6KRHvh1o6a3mgygrBIiC_rtxT-zabVC-2Mg2Bvnea5TYtMjsHmUKfH_FWQ5eRVTXctupASEiQULHSSOHfLDa2mEYoivfhk0RuQj8N3_9sUcL8l1ekGBelpgh6g9O2S6dKVGv27mVr6P4SBd8DD1NSvusbq19aalNEUoCpV8Lwakyh3XmymGAwQSUnnyJxmoKO5bdHkkhjQM6YbI-umLA_iZ1mHduOM10tV7Ef9rVkHjoVcQuxk5bohm9exxGJFgnaqWiNCW5YRVj0u_Y1R-GKXe4HDv8fX7LIx0CqmMTczObq7m-5reKwNG87kNt6nY9xXGsj2gMfVLRjc4lXdbjqbnGtzSW9qWtkit0UaPapWMGQGoXAiP8-kwbxI8GnLQUKasoNuUJ4eldJF8E6j3z-ndpGOpDICLNdrIDCUb5fie50jpjRLIrNRkxFRzpo8i34AtwTIE2PaG4f4Wp23uc7o5NtmeibF9tUQ99a8pbOb88eC_T-2c57UIKAOmWNcw1HrsTSQ2vm794-Nu_txIUNbmhAKCZBvKQ=w1278-h1306)
Applying our decoding method to "otolal" gives us 030415 and 345. This fits perfectly within the expected degree range for Pisces (330-360).
Onward
Hopefully by solving enough of the numbers we can have a foothold on the letters and progress from there. The structure of the numbers also suggests pairing of characters which would be a good way to obfuscate the underlying letter frequencies (first by breaking them up into pairs, but then even more so by having multiple pairs that can represent a plain-text character). As I suggested earlier, this approach to encoding a cipher would result in the identified characteristics spotted in the VMS (namely that looking at single characters evidences serious deficiencies in expected representations and data density).
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| FOUR CIRCLES Challenge |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 15-03-2025, 08:15 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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Another week, another proposed Voynichese translation / interpretation. Someone asked if there was a way to test a proposed solution, the most apparent being a demonstration, where any random page might do well enough, but perhaps there are some more interesting, potentially better choices.
In lieu of the complete textual rendition of the VMs, any or all examples of four folios of circular text might be an adequate challenge. They are the outer ring of the cosmos, the outer circle of White Aries, the circular text in the central Rosette, and the four lines associated with the moon and wreath (middle of f85r2-f86v6). Better choices require reasons and for the first three, the reason is the presence of Stolfi's markers. Stolfi's markers constitute a functional mechanism for the dispersal and reconstitution of a hidden text. While the matter of actual versus potential usage is still awaiting a valid translation, there is the clear, physical connection on VMs White Aries of a text marker with a potential heraldic insignia of real historical significance.
The rosette text bands have variously designed markers. The central rosette has two markers that follow the quatrefoil pattern. The last of the circles has no marker, just a clear, blank space dividing four circular lines of text. A hidden text could be constructed as easy as (1) one marker in the cosmos; (2) two markers in the central rosette; (3) three markers in the zodiac sequence. Structure can be demonstrated, but was it created and invested with meaning??
While there are other interesting possible folios, making a sensible and verifiable translation of these four examples would be a most promising start.
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![[Image: Diacritical3-768x433.jpg]](https://proofreadingpal.com/proofreading-pulse/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Diacritical3-768x433.jpg)
![[Image: what.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/SKZfvjvs/what.jpg)