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F70V1
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| Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 13-01-2023, 02:28 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Now that the proceedings of the Malta conference have been published, I started by reading Stefan Guzy's paper about Rudolf's acquisition of the Voynich: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
He provides some much-needed context for what a sum of 600 ducats would actually have meant, and he argues that this large sum for a single manuscript is unlikely.
* The budget for the acquisition of manuscripts for the imperial library was set at 200 ducats a year. Of course, the Voynich could have been purchased for a different collection altogether. Still, what this would mean is that the manuscript would have cost as much as all books and manuscripts the Imperial library purchased over three years combined.
* The most likely candidate acquisition he found was one for 600 florins, which would have been if I understand correctly about 333 ducats. This purchase was for a barrel of rare books:
Quote:The most detailed account of what was bought in the 600 fl. deal comes from a later
journal entry of the Hofkammer’s clerk regarding the 24 fl. transport costs for this deal: ain väßl mitt
allerlai selzamen büchern (a small barrel with a couple of remarkable/rare books). Unlike today,
wooden barrels were used as a common way to transport books safely.
Note on Guzy's translation: "a couple of" in English has the connotation of a small amount. I am not sure if this is present in the German "allerlai", which to me feels more like "all manner of", implying a large variety.
Either way, a barrel of rare books was purchased for 600 florins, which were worth about half as much as the 600 ducats from Marci's letter.
* An example of a prestigious purchase of Herbaria is mentioned: four precious illuminated books for a total of 370 florins (About 200 ducats? So that would be 50 ducats per book).
This leaves us with two possible conclusions:
Either the details from the Marci letter are correct, and the emperor really spent three times the Imperial library's annual acquisition budget on a single manuscript. In this case, records of this highly unusual purchase have not yet been found.
Or the information in the Marci letter is incorrect. If Guzy's hunch about the 600 florins purchase is right, this would mean that Marci not only changed the currency to one that was twice as valuable, but also implied that only the single manuscript was bought for this amount instead of the actual barrel of rare books. Even if this barrel only contained five books, this would still mean that the "600 ducats" amount inflates the price tenfold.
So would you consider this enough evidence to assume that "600 ducats" was probably an incorrect price?
(Note: I do not know much about this matter and may have misunderstood things, will gladly be corrected).
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| The Shape of Words - topological structure in natural language data |
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Posted by: Scarecrow - 13-01-2023, 10:27 AM - Forum: News
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Found this Stephen Fitz's (from Keio university, Tokyo) paper yesterday.
This paper presents a novel method, based on the ideas from algebraic topology, for the analysis of raw natural language text. The paper introduces the notion of a word manifold - a simplicial complex, whose topology encodes grammatical structure expressed by the corpus. Results of experiments with a variety of natural and synthetic languages are presented, showing that the homotopy type of the word manifold is influenced by linguistic structure.
The analysis includes a new approach to the Voynich Manuscript - an unsolved puzzle in corpus linguistics. In contrast to existing topological data analysis approaches, we do not rely on the apparatus of persistent homology. Instead, we develop a method of generating topological structure directly from strings of words.
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These results show that the topology of the word manifold is influenced by linguistic structure expressed by the corpus. Furthermore, we can interpret dimensions of the word manifold by comparing natural and synthetic data.
New?
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| More rigorously testing the hoax hypothesis |
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Posted by: degaskell - 10-01-2023, 10:45 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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As seen at the conference last year, Claire Bowern and I have recently published a paper examining the statistical properties of meaningless text. Interested parties are referred to the full paper (now available You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but briefly, we recruited human participants to produce real, handwritten samples of meaningless text and compared them statistically to Voynichese. Contrary to what has often been assumed, we found that real human gibberish actually tends to be highly non-random and may even explain some of the more unusual features of Voynichese (such as low entropy) better than meaningful text does.
I'll take the cautious scientific approach here and not try to over-analyze what this actually means, but I do want to start a conversation about how to more rigorously test whether the Voynich is meaningful or not. As we argue in the paper, many existing approaches have implicitly operated from the assumption that "meaningless" = "random", so if we find non-random patterns in the text (of word and character frequencies, word placement in sections, etc.), these are often taken as evidence that the text encodes meaningful content. However, our experiments generally contradict this assumption. When we actually sit real humans down and say "write me something that looks meaningful but isn't" - even people without much background in linguistics or the Voynich manuscript - we end up with an explosion of different texts and approaches, many of which are surprisingly non-random. On the whole, this gives me great caution in assuming almost anything about what a group of hoaxing scribes might have been capable or incapable of doing. To borrow a line from a colleague of mine, "I don't know, man, people are weird."
But again, if this is true, how might we more rigorously test if the text is meaningful or not? I think one major outstanding gap is in our understanding of how small-scale characteristics of gibberish might propagate over larger-scale documents like the Voynich, but there are undoubtedly others as well. We suggest in the paper that computer simulations might be one way to approach this, but I'm very interested to hear other ideas.
P.S. Torsten Timm may be interested to note that our experiment broadly seems to support his idea of "self-citation", at least in the sense that some of our participants did actually report doing this.
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| Gallows as abbreviations |
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Posted by: LisaFaginDavis - 10-01-2023, 01:59 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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My keynote from the Voynich2022 Conference has been posted here:
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It was recorded and can be viewed here:
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In addition to walking through my scribal attributions, which won't be new to some of you, I've laid out in the lecture my ideas for interpreting [p] as an abbreviation for [ke], and [f] as an abbreviation for [te]. I won't go into the argument here, since it's explained in great detail in the paper and recording, but I did want to let you all know that I have posted a version of the Rene's IVTFF EVA transcription that shows how the text would appear if the purported abbreviations were expanded.
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For example, the first word of the manuscript [fachys] becomes [teachys]. I'm not a linguist or a cryptologist, so I can't offer an opinion about how/if this proposal is plausible from those perspectives; my argument comes from a scribal and paleographical perspective. I would really love to see how this idea might impact the statistical work of those of you doing computational analyses of the text. Feel free to download the expanded version and work with it. Please let me know how this impacts your work, if at all, and if you find evidence to support or contradict this proposal.
Thank you!
- Lisa
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| Antonio Francesco Gori |
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Posted by: davidjackson - 05-01-2023, 01:15 AM - Forum: Provenance & history
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Whilst playing about with chatGPL, it informed me that one of the owners of the Voynich manuscript was the 18th century monk, linguist, polymath and artist Antonio Francesco Gori. He's mainly known nowadays for being the bloke who stole Galilleo's finger from his casket and put it on display.
Anyway, the AI claims that amongst the owners of the Voynich was:
Quote:Antonio Francesco Gori: Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the manuscript from the Jesuit College in Rome. He is known to have made some attempts to decipher it, but he was also unable to make any significant progress.
I'd never heard of the bloke, so I investigated.
I asked the AI:
"What was the relation between Antonio Francesco Gori and the Voynich manuscript?"
It said:
Quote:Antonio Francesco Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the Voynich manuscript in the late 18th century. It is not clear exactly how Gori came into possession of the manuscript, but it is believed that he acquired it from the Jesuit College in Rome, where it had been held since the early 18th century. Gori is known to have made some attempts to decipher the manuscript, but he was ultimately unable to make any significant progress. The Voynich manuscript remained in Gori's possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son, who later sold it to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer.[font=Söhne, ui-sans-serif, system-ui, -apple-system, 'Segoe UI', Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'].[/font]
Well, Gori died in 1757 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), not 1796, so that's wrong. Anyway, I tried to find out more:
"Did Antonio Gori sell Wilfred Voynich his famous manuscript?"
Quote:No, Antonio Francesco Gori did not sell the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich. Gori was an Italian scholar who acquired the Voynich manuscript in the late 18th century. It is not clear exactly how Gori came into possession of the manuscript, but it is believed that he acquired it from the Jesuit College in Rome, where it had been held since the early 18th century. Gori is known to have made some attempts to decipher the manuscript, but he was ultimately unable to make any significant progress. The Voynich manuscript remained in Gori's possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son, who later sold it to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer. Voynich is known to have been a collector of rare books and manuscripts, and it is believed that he acquired the Voynich manuscript in an effort to solve its mystery and add it to his collection. The Voynich manuscript remained in Voynich's possession until his death in 1930, after which it passed to his wife, who later sold it to the Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library at Yale University, where it has been housed since 1969.
One final attempt:
"Who told you that Antonio Gori's son sold Wilfred Voynich his famous manuscript?"
Quote:The information that I provided about the ownership history of the Voynich manuscript comes from a variety of sources, including historical records and academic literature about the manuscript. It is not clear exactly who sold the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich, but it is known that Antonio Francesco Gori, an Italian scholar, acquired the manuscript in the late 18th century and that it remained in his possession until his death in 1796, after which it passed to his son. It is believed that the son sold the Voynich manuscript to Wilfrid M. Voynich, a Polish book dealer, at some point after that. Voynich is known to have been a collector of rare books and manuscripts, and it is believed that he acquired the Voynich manuscript in an effort to solve its mystery and add it to his collection. The Voynich manuscript remained in Voynich's possession until his death in 1930, after which it passed to his wife, who later sold it to the Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library at Yale University, where it has been housed since 1969.
I asked the AI a few more questions about Gori but it only referenced him in the context of the VM.
QUESTION: Where is the AI getting this Gori story from?
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| Distinguishing Characters |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 27-12-2022, 07:51 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I am working on a cipher at the moment and it has been very illuminating in lots of different ways. It got me thinking about the questions of corrections as I discussed in a different thread. I was just watching a video of Claire Bowern talking about the Voynich and she mentioned the subject of the difficulty of distinguishing between certain characters and deciding if in a given instance we have 1 or 2 different characters. I obviously was aware of this subject, but the video reminded me of it.
I have found the same problem in the cipher from the same time that I am deciphering. Sometimes it is not clear if two characters are the same or different. In fact this seems to be a common problem. So the Voynich is far from unique in this regard. I am not sure if there is a general method or approach applicable to ciphers of that time to discern the true underlying characters and avoid unnecessary duplication and incorrect conflation. I do think there is value in the exercise of trying to decipher old ciphers as it makes one consider simple common issues like these as well as more complex parallels.
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| Do f58r/f58v show Currier languages evolving? |
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Posted by: nickpelling - 26-12-2022, 09:02 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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Hi everyone, hope you're all having a good holiday time etc,
I've recently been thinking/posting a lot about Q20's bifolio nesting/ordering, and as part of that have revisited the suggestion that f58r/f58v might have been the original first two pages of Q20. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
However, one thing that emerged from this is that the text on f58r/v is really rather unusual: as examples, you can look at “alal”, "alol", "olal", and "okal", all of which are to be found more often on f58 than on any other single folio. ("arar" is tied with f85r1.) Similarly, f58's fraction of "ed-" words is more than A pages (which have almost none), but much lower than typical B pages. Also quite unlike the Q13/Q20 B pages, f58 has only a single word where the first glyph is "l".
I'm therefore wondering whether f58 might turn out to be a key language page, kind of mid-point in the evolution between Currier A and Currier B.
Has anyone looked specifically at text oddities of f58? I've trawled the web but haven't found anything, but perhaps this is one of those topics that people here have seen things for themselves but not got round to mentioning.
Cheers, Nick
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| Using AI to get clues about the imaginery |
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Posted by: sunflowerleaf - 25-12-2022, 04:38 PM - Forum: Imagery
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I was asking AI questions that could be relevant to understanding the Voynich manuscript and I thought I should share some of the answers I got that I thought made sense.
Plants
For example, a medieval artist might depict a plant in a stylized or exaggerated way in order to convey a specific meaning or message. For example, a plant might be depicted with larger or more exaggerated leaves in order to symbolize abundance or fertility. Alternatively, a plant might be depicted with smaller or more delicate leaves in order to symbolize fragility or vulnerability.
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It is also important to remember that the techniques and materials available to medieval artists were very different from those available to artists today. As a result, the depiction of plants and other natural elements in medieval art may not always be accurate or realistic when compared to how they actually appear in nature.
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Overall, it is important to remember that the art and imagery of any given period reflects the values, beliefs, and cultural context of the time in which it was created. In the case of medieval art, plants and other natural elements were often depicted in a symbolic or allegorical manner, rather than being intended to be a realistic representation of the natural world.
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A plant might be depicted with more leaves or flowers than it actually has, in order to symbolize abundance or fertility. A plant might be depicted with larger or more exaggerated leaves in order to convey a sense of grandeur or importance. A plant might be depicted with smaller or more delicate leaves in order to symbolize fragility or vulnerability. A plant might be depicted with a specific color or pattern in order to convey a particular meaning or message. For example, a plant might be depicted with red flowers in order to symbolize passion or love, or with blue flowers in order to symbolize faith or devotion. A plant might be depicted with specific symbolic elements, such as fruit or flowers, in order to convey a particular meaning or message. For example, a tree might be depicted with apples in order to symbolize knowledge or temptation, or with roses in order to symbolize love or beauty.
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Overall, the depiction of plants and other natural elements in medieval art was often intended to convey specific meanings or messages, rather than being intended to be a realistic representation of the natural world
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A plant might be depicted in a stylized or exaggerated manner in order to convey a particular mood or atmosphere. For example, a plant might be depicted with twisted, gnarled branches in order to convey a sense of foreboding or danger, or with delicate, graceful leaves in order to convey a sense of beauty or serenity.
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Anatomy & some interconnections between medicine and astrology/astronomy
Medieval anatomical drawings were typically quite different from what we would consider a realistic representation of the human body today. This is because the understanding of anatomy during the medieval period was limited by the lack of access to human cadavers for study, as well as by the limited knowledge of physiological processes. Here are a few ways in which medieval anatomical drawings differed from reality: Stylization: Medieval anatomical drawings were often highly stylized, with simplified and exaggerated features. This was often done to convey a specific meaning or message, or to make the illustration easier to understand. As a result, these drawings did not accurately represent the structure and function of the human body. Inaccurate depiction of organs and systems: The organs and systems of the human body were often depicted in a simplified or stylized manner in medieval anatomical drawings. For example, the heart might be depicted as a simple geometric shape, rather than a complex organ with specific functions. Lack of detail: Medieval anatomical drawings often lacked the level of detail and precision that we would expect in modern anatomical illustrations. This was due in part to the limited knowledge of anatomy at the time, as well as the fact that these drawings were often created for educational or instructional purposes, rather than as scientific illustrations.
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Another reason is that the purpose of these drawings may not have been to create a scientific representation of the body, but rather to illustrate certain concepts or ideas related to medicine or anatomy. For example, a drawing might depict the body in a stylized or symbolic way in order to convey the location of a particular organ or to show the relationship between different parts of the body.
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During the medieval period, many scholars believed that the structure and function of the human body were a reflection of the larger order of the cosmos. This belief was based on the idea that the universe was a harmonious and interconnected whole, and that the human body was a microcosm of the larger cosmos. As a result, the study of anatomy in the medieval period was often seen as a way of understanding the structure and function of the cosmos as a whole. Scholars who studied anatomy might also study other subjects such as astronomy, mathematics, and philosophy in order to gain a better understanding of the larger order of the universe. For example, some medieval scholars believed that the structure and function of the human body were governed by the same principles that governed the movement of the stars and planets. As a result, the study of anatomy was seen as a way of understanding the underlying principles that governed the cosmos as a whole. Similarly, the study of anatomy was often seen as a way of understanding the natural world and the relationships between different living beings. Scholars who studied anatomy might also study botany, zoology, and other subjects in order to gain a better understanding of the natural world and the interconnections between different living things.
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In the "Canon of Medicine," Avicenna wrote extensively about anatomy, including descriptions of the structure and function of various organs and systems in the human body. He also provided detailed descriptions of different types of tissue, such as muscle, bone, and nerve tissue. In addition, Avicenna made important contributions to the understanding of the cardiovascular system, including the role of the heart in circulation and the function of the blood vessels.
Galen made significant contributions to the study of anatomy, including descriptions of the structure and function of various organs and systems in the human body. He also developed a system for classifying different types of tissue, such as muscle, bone, and nerve tissue. In addition, Galen made important contributions to the understanding of the cardiovascular system, including the role of the heart in circulation and the function of the blood vessels.
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Astrology and herbology were often interconnected in the medieval period because many people believed that the movements and positions of the stars and planets had an influence on the natural world, including on the properties and medicinal uses of different herbs. As a result, astrology and herbology were often studied together as part of a broader understanding of the natural world and the relationships between different living beings.
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In the 1400s, the study of celestial bodies was closely interconnected with the study of anatomy. This was due in part to the influence of the Ptolemaic model of the universe, which held that the Earth was at the center of the universe and that the celestial bodies (such as the Sun, Moon, and planets) revolved around it. According to this model, the celestial bodies were thought to have a direct influence on the human body and its functions. In the Islamic world, scholars such as Avicenna (also known as Ibn Sina) wrote extensively about the relationship between celestial bodies and anatomy. In his medical encyclopedia, the "Canon of Medicine," Avicenna discussed the idea that the movements of the celestial bodies could affect the health and well-being of individuals. He also described the role of the planets in the development and functioning of the human body, including their influence on the various organs and systems. In addition to Avicenna, other scholars in the Islamic world and Europe also wrote about the relationship between celestial bodies and anatomy. For example, the astronomer and mathematician Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) developed a theory about the relationship between the orbits of the planets and the proportions of the human body. Overall, the study of celestial bodies and anatomy were closely interconnected in the 1400s and beyond, with scholars seeking to understand the relationship between the movements of celestial bodies and the functions of the human body.
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Medicine: Astrology, astronomy, and herbalism were closely connected to medicine in the 1400s because astrologers and physicians believed that the movements and positions of celestial bodies influenced the human body and could be used to predict and treat illnesses and conditions. (would further explain why those weird drawings are anatomical. Since they often used animals to learn about anatomy it could possibly be based on animals but applied to humans, it could explain why there's random drawings of animals, assuming they aren't purely symbolic.)
Anatomy and nymphs
In the context of a medical drawing, it is possible that nymphs were used to symbolize certain aspects of the human body or of health and wellness. For example, a nymph might be depicted alongside a drawing of the reproductive system to symbolize fertility, or alongside a depiction of the circulatory system to symbolize the flow of life-giving fluids throughout the body.
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It is possible that nymphs were used in medical drawings as a symbolic representation of the circulatory system, which is the system of vessels and organs that transports blood throughout the body. In this context, the nymphs might be depicted as representing the flow of blood through the body, or as representing the vital role that the circulatory system plays in maintaining health and wellness.
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The depiction of nymphs in medical drawings from the 1400s would likely have been intended to serve a symbolic or allegorical purpose, rather than to provide a literal depiction of the circulatory system.
Jars
(My theory that they were not real jars but rather symbolic drawings in which the content was symbolically portrayed in the shape of the jar, more details could for example symbolize higher value or status)
The shape of the jar might symbolize the nature or properties of its contents. For example: A jar with a round or bulbous shape might symbolize that it contains a liquid or a substance that is soft or pliable. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are abundant or plentiful. A jar with a narrow or elongated shape might symbolize that it contains a solid or a substance that is more structured or rigid. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are concentrated or focused in some way. A jar with a wide or open shape might symbolize that it contains a substance that is easily accessible or available. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are welcoming or inviting. A jar with a tall or upright shape might symbolize that it contains a substance that is uplifting or elevating. This shape might also suggest that the contents of the jar are dignified or noble.
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Yes, it is likely that people in the medieval period used the idea that the physical appearance of a jar can symbolize the nature or properties of its contents. Jars were commonly used in the medieval period to store and transport a wide variety of substances, including food, water, and various other materials, and the physical appearance of the jar might have been used to provide clues about the contents of the jar.
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Jars with feet might be used to keep the jar off the ground and to prevent it from coming into direct contact with dirt or moisture. This could be useful for jars that contain perishable or delicate substances that might be damaged if they come into contact with the ground or if they are exposed to moisture.
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