Mark Knowles > 27-12-2022, 07:51 PM
Mark Knowles > 28-12-2022, 12:42 AM
MichelleL11 > 28-12-2022, 02:28 AM
(28-12-2022, 12:42 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing which may be harder in ciphers other than the Voynich is identifying spaces.
Ruby Novacna > 28-12-2022, 12:22 PM
(28-12-2022, 02:28 AM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....you can see in the plaintext that the same non-ciphered word is spelled different ways in the same lineSo we can expect to find some words in the VM written in different ways, apart from abbreviations and ligatures?
MichelleL11 > 28-12-2022, 02:50 PM
(28-12-2022, 12:22 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(28-12-2022, 02:28 AM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....you can see in the plaintext that the same non-ciphered word is spelled different ways in the same lineSo we can expect to find some words in the VM written in different ways, apart from abbreviations and ligatures?
Mark Knowles > 28-12-2022, 03:54 PM
(28-12-2022, 02:28 AM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(28-12-2022, 12:42 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing which may be harder in ciphers other than the Voynich is identifying spaces.Even if it is just a "simple substitution cipher" the only thing I see consistently is inconsistency.
What I mean by that is: (1) the cipher shapes are not drawn consistently (thus making homophonic keys where maybe it is or maybe it isn't?), (2) word spaces are inconsistent -- particularly at line breaks, where you'd think that might be a "stronger" space but instead what I see (although it is dependent on the scribe) the cipher writer just keeps going until space runs out and then finishes the rest of the word on the next line (no difference if it is Latin or venacular plain text -- this is seen in all cases); and (3) the often recognized Medieval spelling and grammar inconsistencies of the time for both Latin and venacular not surprisingly continue in the ciphers' ultimate plain text. It is particularly discouraging when you are trying to decipher maybe a few words or a short text and you can see in the plaintext that the same non-ciphered word is spelled different ways in the same line. Makes things really hard.
And this doesn't even take into account all the possible abbreviations and variations that can be introduced with that extra layer (again, both in Latin and in vernacular).
So people can sneer at how the ciphers (other than the Voynich, if it is a cipher) are "simple" but in reality actually figuring out what was encoded is a multiple level puzzle that in the community (and even on this board, dare I say it) just doesn't get enough respect. Until you've tried a few yourself --- then I want to hear how "simple" you think these things really are. I found it gave me a very different view into the deciphering process and recommend it very highly to anyone who is working with the text.
There are plenty that have never been figured out . . .
This is particularly true with non-diplomatic ones -- which is where I have focused my efforts.
But I'd be interested in your view, Mark, on how it plays out in diplomatic correspondence.
Koen G > 28-12-2022, 07:51 PM
(28-12-2022, 03:54 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.paradoxically there seems to be so little interest in ciphers from the time of the Voynich manuscript
MichelleL11 > 28-12-2022, 09:34 PM
(28-12-2022, 07:51 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far I am not aware of any cipher that illuminates what could be going on with the VM. I suspect there would be more interest in this if there was a closer connection between the VM and the known ciphers of the time. Right now it feels like looking for a needle in a haystack where you don't even know if there is any needle at all.
Mark Knowles > 28-12-2022, 09:58 PM
(28-12-2022, 07:51 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are right that you are not aware of any cipher that illuminates what could be going on with the VM. But you haven't looked, so of course you aren't aware.(28-12-2022, 03:54 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.paradoxically there seems to be so little interest in ciphers from the time of the Voynich manuscriptCorrect me if I'm wrong, but so far I am not aware of any cipher that illuminates what could be going on with the VM.
julian > 29-12-2022, 06:05 AM