| Welcome, Guest |
You have to register before you can post on our site.
|
| Latest Threads |
My Solution – Abbreviated...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: Ruby Novacna
16 minutes ago
» Replies: 15
» Views: 555
|
A One-Page Ledger Method ...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: Dunsel
2 hours ago
» Replies: 143
» Views: 5,636
|
No text, but a visual cod...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: Antonio García Jiménez
3 hours ago
» Replies: 1,742
» Views: 1,166,765
|
Rosettes castle and Rocca...
Forum: Imagery
Last Post: DG97EEB
5 hours ago
» Replies: 8
» Views: 285
|
Voynich is encrypted ENOC...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: Radim Dobeš
5 hours ago
» Replies: 130
» Views: 14,904
|
Who is even still working...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: anyasophira
Today, 05:53 AM
» Replies: 20
» Views: 722
|
What is special about Voy...
Forum: Imagery
Last Post: Bernd
Yesterday, 10:56 PM
» Replies: 25
» Views: 24,225
|
Why and how the text coul...
Forum: Theories & Solutions
Last Post: JoJo_Jost
Yesterday, 07:01 PM
» Replies: 228
» Views: 26,208
|
9 Radial Fully Mapped to ...
Forum: Astrology & Astronomy
Last Post: rikforto
Yesterday, 04:29 PM
» Replies: 4
» Views: 642
|
The Voynich as a rhythmic...
Forum: Analysis of the text
Last Post: nintus
25-05-2026, 10:32 AM
» Replies: 11
» Views: 1,142
|
|
|
| "The Currier languages revisited" revisited |
|
Posted by: kckluge - 19-12-2025, 04:05 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (72)
|
 |
One page on Rene's site (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) does a bigram frequency level analysis of the pages in the manuscript. This post is specifically addressing the section starting with "Language characteristics". The analysis on that part of the page:
* uses Rene's CUVA alphabet to deal with EVA's oversegementation of the glyphs (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
* removes uncertain spaces from the transcription, but leaves other spaces
* only looks at bigrams within words, not bigrams straddling spaces
* starts with a feature space corresponding to the relative frequencies of all 355 CUVA bigrams that occur, then does a dimensionality reduction similar (but not identical) to Principle Components Analysis (PCA -- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. describes PCA)
Plots are shown for the dominant vector vs. the 2nd through 4th vectors found by his method. On the basis of those plots he concludes, "When Currier identified his languages A and B, he did this on the basis of the different statistics of the initial herbal pages in the MS, which are identified by the red ('A') and dark blue ('B') crosses. It is clear that these have distinct properties - the clouds do not overlap. He also checked the other pages, and noted more variations, but his criteria for distinguishing the languages did not allow him to see that the overall statistics demonstrate that there is a continuum, and the other (not herbal) pages actually 'bridge the gap'."
It is important to be careful about drawing conclusions from linear projections of higher dimensional data onto lower dimensional spaces. If two clumps of points are separable in the lower dimensional projection then they are also separable in the full dimensional space, but the inverse is not true -- two clumps of points that overlap in some projection do not necessarily overlap in the full space.
To examine Rene's conclusion I performed a variation of the analysis described above:
* the Currier alphabet is used rather than CUVA, translated from the ZL_ivtff_1b.txt EVA transcription (when multiple proposed reading are given for a glyph the first option is used)
* uncertain spaces are removed as per the original experiment
* only lines corresponding to running paragraph and "circular" text -- no radial text from diagrams or labels
* only the 40 most common bigrams are used -- in Currier these are:
89 OF OE 4O CC C8 SC 8A C9 AM FC OP CO AR FA AE OR ZC SO O8 PC AN PA EF FS ZO PS S9 ES RA S8 9F AJ BS F9 FO PO 2A 9P EO
which correspond to EVA
dy ok ol qo ee ed che da ey aiin ke ot eo ar ka al or she cho od te ain ta lk kch sho tch chy lch ra chd yk am pch ky ko to sa yt lo
* bigrams including spaces (with end-of-line, end-of-paragraph, and plant drawing gaps counted as spaces) are included in the total bigram count for a page when computing relative bigram frequencies for the page
The 40 Currier bigrams listed above cover 83% of the bigrams that don't include a space or untranslatable/transcribed non-Currier "wierdo". Applying PCA, the first two dimensions found capture 48% of the covariance in the 40-D data. The resulting plot is:
With the exception of three pages, the Herbal B, Bio, Starred paragraph, and Rose foldout pages fall together in one cluster and the Herbal A, Astro, Zodiac, and Pharma pages fall together in another cluster, separated by a clear diagonal gap.
One exception is Zodiac page f73v; the other two exceptions are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. & f65v. f58 & f65 are the halves of a biofolio that Lisa Fagin-Davis identifies as by Scribe 3; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a plant drawing with no text other than a 2-3 word label. Traditionally those bifolio pages have been labelled as A Language, which would make this the only known non-Scribe 1 Herbal A biofolio. It is plausible that the f58 & f65 bifolio pages are B language pages with atypical relative frequencies of the small number of key bigrams used to make the initial A/B classification by Currier (in which case You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. becomes the outlier grouped with the Herbal A pages).
The differences between the analyses are:
* use of CUVA vs Currier
* inclusion of radial and label text elements vs only running paragraph and "circular" diagram text
* starts with a 355-D space (all bigram frequencies) vs a 40-D space (only most common, corresponding to 83% of the glyph bigram pairs in the text)
* dimensionality reduction using a heuristic PCA-like method rather than PCA
The lack of clear separation between the A and B languages in Rene's plots is most likely due to a combination of very low frequency bigrams adding noise into the data with suboptimal choice of basis vectors by his dimensionality reduction method.
|
|
|
| Voynich El yazmasını tercüme ettiğimi iddia ediyorum |
|
Posted by: Kutlu Kaan - 17-12-2025, 05:18 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (40)
|
|
Voynich El Yazması Eski Anadolu Türkçesi mi?
Voynich El Yazmasının Eski Anadolu Türkçesi ile yazıldığını keşfetmiş bulunmaktayım. İlk sayfayı nerede ise eksiksiz okuyabiliyorum. Bu yazmayı 15. yüzyılda bir Türk yazmışsa hikayesi ne olmalı sorusunu kendime sorarak başladım. Kendime "1400 yıllarında Türk dünyasında neler oluyordu" diye sordum.
Timur ile Beyazıt, 1402 tarihinde Ankara savaşını yaptı . Osmanlı İmparatorluğunda 11 yıllık bir hükümdarsız bir dönem oldu. Kardeş kardeşi öldürmüş Anadolu karışmış, herkes yeni bir güç oluşturma çabasındaydı. Özetle çok kanlı ve üzüntülü bir dönem yaşanıyordu. Tarikat ve şeyhler, halka Sünni İslam'ı yaymak için baskı oluşturuluyorlardı.
Anadolu'da yaşayan bir aydın bu durumu anlatan ağıt veya umut verecek bir şeyler yazmalı diye düşündüm. Bu kişi Arap alfabesi ile Türkçe yazmayı bilmeli, Latin Alfabesine de yabancı olmamalı.
Bende EVA- Genişletilebilir Voynich Alfabesi ile metin transliterasyonlarını incelemeye başladım.
EVA “e” yerine U sesi , EVA “q” yerine G sesi gibi bazı değişiklikler yapılınca anlamlı kelimeler oluşturmaya başladım. 15 karakterin ne ifade ettiğini kesin olarak bilmekteyim.
Voynich El Yazmasının Eski Anadolu Türkçesi ile yazıldığına artık eminim. Ben bir dil bilimci, tarihçi veya eski çağ metinleri hakkında bilgi sahibi bir kişi değildim, metinin tümünü çözemiyorum. En kötü ikinci bir dil de bilmemekteyim. Sizi yazımın tercümesini yapma eziyetine maruz bıraktığım için üzgünüm. Yardımınız olursa sevinirim. İlgilenirseniz çözümlerimi sizler ile paylaşabilirim. Sağlık ve esenlik içinde kalınız.
|
|
|
|
| Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. |
|
Posted by: Koen G - 17-12-2025, 12:33 PM - Forum: Marginalia
- Replies (66)
|
 |
For a long time, the only attestation of "poxleber" known to Voynich researchers was in a 16th century burlesque carnival play by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In the dialogue, uncivilized characters use various compound words consisting of "pox-" combined with a body part. Pox belly, pox wounds, pox bones, pox liver...
Even in ancient cultures, the custom existed to swear oaths by the Gods, and this persisted in medieval and early modern Europe. The earlier practice was to swear by parts of God's body. If you swear something by Christ's five holy wounds, or any other part of his earthly manifestation, you're making it clear that you mean it.
Obviously the priest doesn't like it when you do this, so people come up with euphemistic "minced oaths" to avoid actually saying the word "God". In modern English we have "gosh" or "golly", in Dutch "pot" as in "potverdomme", in Frech the "bleu" in "sacrebleu". In 14th century English, "God" is replaced by minced forms like "gog" and "cock" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
The attestation in the 16th century Fastnachtspiele is such a case where "poxleber" is used as a minced form of "Gotts Leber", "God's liver". I have regularly opposed the relevance of this fragment for f116v, exactly because of this context. You can have a boorish carnivalesque character use "poxleber" in a dialogue, but that doesn't mean we should expect a scribe (any scribe) to use it out of the sacreblue. It's as if Henry Gray would write "D'oh! I used the wrong graph here!" in the margins while preparing his famous book on human anatomy.
Yesterday, I came across a sermon book by Viennese Theologian, professor and historian You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., active in the first half of the 15th century (a century before Hans Sachs). The MS is BSB CLM 293, f.310r (scan 623). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I can't transcribe this kind of Latin, but luckily Marco was able to help:
ChatGPT translates the (incomplete) transcription like this:
Quote:There are to be reproved those who swear by shameful creatures, likewise thinking themselves not bound, as when they say “pox grmt poxlaus zais”, since in such words the Creator of those things still shines forth. Those who swear falsely in this way are perjurers and sinners.
I further observe that even more reprehensible are those who swear by things which neither are nor ever will be, thinking themselves not bound, as those who say “sam mir pox gamiger gameri”.
Why does this matter?
The "minced oath" interpretation of "poxleber" is still quite popular. But so far, we only had a century-late attestation in a dissimilar source. Now, we have a sermon by someone active in pre-1450 Vienna, complaining about "pox" swearing by the people.
What this passage teaches us:
- The minced oath is already spelled with "x".
- It is interpreted as swearing an oath, and the sin is false testimony, perjury. The message is: you shouldn't think you can get away with false promises by twisting the name of God.
- It is understood as a mangled version of the name of the Creator.
- It is also understood as the name of a creature, which means that they are aware of the "bock". Just like the "cock" in the English example mentioned earlier, "pot" in Dutch and "bleu" in French, the minced name of God drifted towards an existing "replacement" word.
What this means for the Voynich "poxleber":
- If you want to read it as "God's liver", it is unlikely to be a cry of anger or frustration: the scribe is swearing a solemn oath by God's liver. Which formulations do we expect when swearing an oath, and what is the scribe's vow?
- Swearing oaths like this was clearly done by people in the first half of the 15th century, but apparently frowned upon and mocked by the learned class. Would we expect this uncivilized form written by someone who has clearly had some education?
- The spelling "x" over "cks" is likely inspired by this oath-usage, but awareness of the animal was present in the oath. Since spelling was not standardized, would we not rather expect the ingredient in the VM?
What remains: the preceding paragraph also contains some pox, but I am unable to transcribe the Latin. Also, the German phrases appear to be renditions of spoken language and are hard for me to understand fully.
Edit: added MS link.
|
|
|
|
| qocheedy dain daiin |
|
Posted by: Krasturak - 17-12-2025, 04:21 AM - Forum: The Slop Bucket
- Replies (1)
|
|
I am very glad you made this prison. I probably will enjoy residing here, in the prison, while I share with the silent world my secret method for decoding the Voynich Manuscript. My method is strong, and reproduceable, anyone can do it, so follow along with me and we will discover the hidden factors of the truth underlying the manuscript.
Step 1: Choose a page. Any page, any folio or quire, with or without illustrations. It is more fun if it has illustrations, but it is not necessary for my method.
Step 2: Choose a word. Any word on the page will do. It is more fun if it is a label, or a first word, or a word with a gallows in it, or a rare word, any word, really.
Step 3: Let your imagination drift. Drift, until you imagine you know what the word might mean. Speak the hidden word meaning out loud. Write it down. Know, in your heart, that this is the meaning of the word.
Step 4: Imagine the meaning of nearby words. Don't rush this step, it is more satisfying if you spend ten minutes or more imagining each of the nearby words. You can take more time, if you are feeling it, but do not rush. For each of those words, make them so they make sense in a sentence along with the first word. Or, should I say, discover the meaning of those words. Speak the meannings out loud. Write them down.
Step 5: Share your thoughts. Tell the world how you have decoded this small section of the MS, and that you are on track to decode and translate more of the MS as time goes on. But that your method is difficult to explain, share a few of your private thoughts to make people perceive your inner strength, but do not be discouraged by any doubters or haters you encounter here. They are simply jealous.
Step 6: Enter into a lengthy private study of the MS. For this part, take the set of words you discovered in steps 1-4, and locate some of those words in other parts of the MS. Look at the nearby words in those areas, and use your secret personal ability to discover the meanings of those words, too. It is good if you can relate the meanings you are discovering to the illustrations, and draw on some poorly-remembered myth stories to help you. Don't be stingy, and when you have found those meanings, speak those thoughts out loud and write them down, too. Your journal, or blog post, or comment section should be growing larger.
Step 7: Pass into the shrouded lands. The long-term effort to decode/translate/discoverthesecret of the Voynich MS may have an effect on you. But do not become tired or weak, spend more and more time by yourself, on the internet, studying the range of possibles and linguistic challenges you find among the words in this delightful book. From time to time, send messges out to the world, letting them know how your bold struggle is taking a toll on you, but to be confident you are the solitary person on this Eourth who can apply the singular intellectual presssure on the subject that will illuminate the pages for generations to come. But do not reveal any more of your translations, you must first complete the work before lowering yourself to the judgement of lessor folk. Keep the products of your work secret, but do ensure you send updates to your followers, so they know you have it all in hand. Just a few more words to translate and it will all become right as rain.
Step 8: To lighten the load, visit the internet and employ the modern tools available. Not the statisical analysis that someone spent years developing, no, you need the high power of AI. Speak to the AI, share deeply your state-of-the-art translation. Allow the AI to produce the text that you always wanted. Feel the truth of it in your bones. Bones the truth of it in your writings. Post your writngs in the most best ever place in the internet, where you will get the most appropriate attention, in the ChatGPTPrison.
|
|
|
|
| Voynich Presentation! |
|
Posted by: Voynich_Girl - 16-12-2025, 05:51 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (8)
|
|
Hello Everyone!
So just a quick overview I am set to present at the Maryland Collegiate Honors Conference (MCHC) in February 2026, and I am presenting my project titled: America's Pursuit of Elusive Knowledge: A Historiographical Overview on the Voynich Manuscript, where I am specifically focusing on some of the work done in America on the Voynich Manuscript (source list at the bottom), I was wondering if there was any way to get in contact with any of the sources I am using, I know D'Imperio, Newbold, Tucker, Sherwood, etc. have passed but I wasn't sure if there was anyone else that I could contact regarding their work. For example I know Sherwood's daughter Erica helped her and didn't know if there was an email or other form of contact for her. Additionally if anyone is interested in seeing my original Historiography paper, proposal for MCHC, or an outline of my presentation feel free to drop a comment below!
- Sincerely,
Torre
1. Bower,L. Lindermann,L. The Linguistics of the Voynich Manuscript. Yale University (2020)
2. D'Imperio, M.E. The Voynich Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma. National Security Agency/ Cetural Security Service, Fort George G. Meade, Md, 1978.
3. Janick J. Tucker A. Floral of the Voynich Codex: An Exploration of Aztec Plants. Springer (2019)
4. Janick J. Tucker A. Unraveling the Voynich Codex (Fascinating Life Science). Springer (2018)
5. Sherwood, E. Voynich Botanical Plants (n.d)
6. Sherwood, E. Voynich Botanical Plants 2.0 (n.d)
|
|
|
|
| Some Notes on the Voynich Manuscript |
|
Posted by: Hazama Kaizuka - 16-12-2025, 03:33 PM - Forum: The Slop Bucket
- Replies (1)
|
|
Hello,
I have uploaded a document related to my ongoing observations on the Voynich Manuscript and obtained a Zenodo DOI for stable reference.
I am posting the link here simply to make it available.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
こんにちは。
ヴォイニッチ手稿に関する現在の観察をまとめた文書をアップロードし、参照用として Zenodo で DOI を取得しました。
単純に公開しておく目的で、ここにリンクを置きます。
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
|
|
|
|
| restoring parts of the missing pages |
|
Posted by: georg - 16-12-2025, 01:19 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
- Replies (4)
|
|
With MSI (Multispectral Imaging) it was possible to recover faded text (example: 1r), but the scans also capture parts from the facing page (example: 26r shows offset from 25v). In case there are ever MSI scans of the whole book (or at least of the pages facing the missing ones - which could possibly be the case already), we could get a glimpse of what was on those missing pages.
I don't know much about post-processing, but one would have to subtract the normal scan (and the show-through) from the MSI scan. Obviously this would only reveal very little, but that shouldn't stop anyone from trying.
Has something like that done on any other manuscript?
It would be possible to fine-tune this process with the scans we already have, since we know what the process is supposed to reveal.
Additionally this could be of great help to restore the original order of the pages!
|
|
|
|
|
![[Image: H-30467-0-2.jpg&top=0.384615384615&botto...&width=960]](https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2020-07/01/H-30467-0-2.jpg&top=0.384615384615&bottom=0.801003344481&right=0.999999999999&height=480&width=960)
![[Image: ygbjqide6s0n2ffc7bxx15fyhmbxyijfjniieggx...?w=340&v=2]](https://images.teemill.com/ygbjqide6s0n2ffc7bxx15fyhmbxyijfjniieggxm5gyswer.jpeg.jpeg?w=340&v=2)
![[Image: M8257606_Marley-s_Ghost-John_Leech_1843-...g.cvrt.jpg]](https://glosbe.com/fb_img/profilePageAvatar/M8257606_Marley-s_Ghost-John_Leech_1843-detail.jpg.cvrt.jpg)
Which would support the theory of gibberish.