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Which plaintext languages...
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| Eclipses |
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Posted by: ReneZ - 09-04-2024, 02:28 AM - Forum: Imagery
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(08-04-2024, 07:47 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Today there was a solar eclipse that could be seen in various parts of the world. It would be strange if there were not in the VM, with so many astronomical diagrams, the representation of an eclipse. Some illustrations suggest eclipses. At least one is clear, although with a very childish drawing.This is this illustration from f67:
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Astrological aspects, angular relationships of the Sun and Moon are represented in the corners of this page. In the drawing that I have shown, the opposition between the Sun and the Moon is represented. In the middle we see the Earth with that nice cone that represents the shadow that the Sun projects on the Moon in an eclipse.
If an illustration of an eclipse is to be expected in the Voynich MS, then surely there must be examples in other (readable) manuscripts.
It should be of interest to have examples of this.
In the past, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has been compared to a New Moon, but it could also be an eclipse.
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| Jakob Pueterich von Reichertshausen and Co. |
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Posted by: amelkin - 06-04-2024, 03:07 PM - Forum: Provenance & history
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1. Centers of events - Augsburg, Munich, Prague - the inner circle of Duke Albrecht III and Emperor Sigismund I of Luxembourg.
2. Group of putative collective authors: Kaspar Bernauer, Johannes Hartlieb, Jacob Pueterich von Reichertshausen, Abraham von Worms and from three to seven more specialists in the field of balneology, herbal medicine, pharmacology, gynecology, astrology, cryptography, cosmology and white magic.
3. Jakob Pueterich von Reichertshausen (1400–1469) was one of the most trusted advisors of Duke Albrecht III, whom Albrecht III also served as an accomplished diplomat, and it was most likely he who wrote the Voynich Manuscript along with Dr. Hartlieb and company.
4. The group developed an imitation font and created the Voynich Manuscript for white magic sessions in order to attract clients to pharmacies, medicinal baths, clinics, etc.
5. There are three candidates for the prototype castle from the Voynich Manuscript: Blutenburg Castle, Nannhofen Castle and Pasing Castle.
6. Perhaps there were several manuscripts.
7. One of the copies was presented to Anna of Brunswick and then went to Emperor Rudolph II. Or maybe Emperor Rudolf II owned another copy of the manuscript from the library of his predecessors - Emperor Sigismund I of Luxembourg and intermediate successors?
Source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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| Is the Voynich Manuscript encrypted (encoded, enciphered)? (April 2024) |
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Posted by: pjburkshire - 06-04-2024, 02:16 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (5)
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Is the Voynich Manuscript encrypted (encoded, enciphered)? (April 2024)
I think the Voynich Manuscript...
- is a constructed language.
- is encrypted and the base language is Latin.
- is encrypted and the base language is a non-Latin European language.
- is encrypted and the base language is a non-European language.
- is encrypted but I don't know the base language.
- is not encrypted but an unknown script of an unidentified natural language.
- is not a human language but written by mermaids/angels/extraterrestrials/etc.
- is something meaningful but other than the above options.
- is meaningless, all you people were duped by a hoax.
- Don't know / Not sure / No comment.
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| In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 05-04-2024, 05:36 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (46)
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In your opinion, did the writing of the VM start closer to 1412 or closer to 1440?
This relates to something I was pondering earlier today, but I'd like to see the poll results first. The poll is anonymous, but you can always comment if you like. If you have no idea, then pick what feels best to you. This is not intended to find any solutions, just to see how opinions are divided.
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| Using Massimiliano Zattera's slot sequence or a different one to find missing spaces? |
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Posted by: nablator - 05-04-2024, 01:53 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (8)
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[I know: it's speculative, just an experiment, not a theory, I'm not buying it myself.]
Omitting spaces in a ciphered or coded message only makes sense if the original string of symbols or code words can be reconstructed.
The problem with using MZ's slot sequence directly on space-less Voynichese is that there are several ways to insert spaces: the same glyphs appear several times in the slot sequence. So I tried a different slot sequence as an experiment to see what happens: this is an attempt (un-optimized, just an example) to re-parse vords of space-less Voynichese unambiguously.
In this example, I removed all spaces from the first paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
polcheyqokedySholopchedyolpchedyofShdyoly
dcheylShlolchedqokolcholotarchedyoky
qoteylcheesolkalolchedyokarShedy
dchedyqokainololchcThyykeedyal
qolcheolokeeyolololaiinolorain
sarolesesoteeyShorqokeeyol
dSheesokainchcThyoteyokain
pchedyqokeeyotyqoteyoteeyoly
qoteesyqotedyqokeedychcPhey
choldainotedycheeyqotainly
olSheololkedyShecKhedyoltedy
ychedytedyolSheedyqokeeyloly
dcholShedyqotedyqolchedychetyry
qokechedyqolSheedyorainaroloeeedy
sainolcheedyqokeedyotedy
Then vords were re-constructed using the following unambiguous 10-slot sequence defined as a regular expression:
Replace:
"((qo|)(k|t|p|f|)(ch|Sh|)(c(K|T|P|F)h|)(eee|ee|e|)(o|a|)(iii|ii|i|)(d|l|r|s|)(m|n|)(y|))"
with:
"\1\."
Spaces at the end of lines were removed:
Replace:
"\.$"
with:
""
Result:
pol.chey.qokedy.Shol.o.pchedy.ol.pchedy.o.fShdy.oly
d.chey.l.Shl.ol.ched.qokol.chol.o.tar.chedy.o.ky
qotey.l.chees.ol.kal.ol.chedy.o.kar.Shedy
d.chedy.qokain.ol.ol.chcThy.y.keedy.al
qol.cheol.o.keey.ol.ol.ol.aiin.ol.or.ain
s.ar.ol.es.es.o.teey.Shor.qokeey.ol
d.Shees.o.kain.chcThy.o.tey.o.kain
pchedy.qokeey.o.ty.qotey.o.teey.oly
qoteesy.qotedy.qokeedy.chcPhey
chol.d.ain.o.tedy.cheey.qotain.ly
ol.Sheol.ol.kedy.She.cKhedy.ol.tedy
y.chedy.tedy.ol.Sheedy.qokeey.l.oly
d.chol.Shedy.qotedy.qol.chedy.che.ty.ry
qoke.chedy.qol.Sheedy.or.ain.ar.ol.o.eeedy
s.ain.ol.cheedy.qokeedy.o.tedy
Not bad, but all prefixing o, d, l, r, s, and "Janus pairs" are separated, these are the main differences with a typical transliteration.
Spaces that should probably be omitted, in any consecutive vord pair of the previous paragraph, according to MZ's slot sequence, are marked with ",":
pol.chey.qokedy.Shol.o,pchedy.ol,pchedy.o,fShdy.oly
d,chey.l,Shl.ol,ched.qokol.chol.o,tar.chedy.o,ky
qotey.l,chees.ol,kal.ol,chedy.o,kar.Shedy
d,chedy.qokain.ol,ol.chcThy.y,keedy.al
qol,cheol.o,keey.ol,ol.ol,aiin.ol,or.ain
s,ar.ol,es.es,o,teey.Shor.qokeey.ol
d,Shees,o,kain.chcThy.o,tey.o,kain
pchedy.qokeey.o,ty.qotey.o,teey.oly
qoteesy.qotedy.qokeedy.chcPhey
chol.d,ain.o,tedy.cheey.qotain.ly
ol,Sheol.ol,kedy.She.cKhedy.ol,tedy
y,chedy.tedy.ol,Sheedy.qokeey.l,oly
d,chol.Shedy.qotedy.qol,chedy.che.ty.ry
qoke.chedy.qol,Sheedy.or,ain.ar.ol,o,eeedy
s,ain.ol,cheedy.qokeedy.o,tedy
The two slot sequences complement each other well, using the 10-slot sequence to get the shortest possible vords and MZ's 12-slot sequence to figure out which concatenations are probable.
If most of these "," are removed, and a few "." as well the end result is close to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The hypothesis is that Voynichese was constructed from components in which glyphs were strictly ordered in a slot sequence or similar (it could be a partial order relation or what would be best described by a tree or a finite state machine, because all combinations allowed by the 10-slot sequence don't occur) then spaces were omitted randomly. This randomness was non-uniform, there were preferences, these preferences are (imperfectly) modeled by MZ's slot sequence.
Of course 15th century scribes knew nothing about finite state machines and regular expressions, but they could have a practical implementation that was easy to use. For example the rule that glyphs must be strictly ordered can be enforced by a simple rule in a zigzag path on a square table using glyphs as coordinates: each linear segment of the zigzag path must cross the diagonal and, if we want more constraints, vertices could be forbidden on some areas of the table. I haven't abandoned my theory/delusion about zigzag paths and board games. 
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| Expert Opinion |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 05-04-2024, 01:53 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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There has been a lot said recently about expert opinion. I think specialist opinion(I prefer the word "specialist" to "expert") is very valuable, as I have made clear. However one should always be cognisant of what an individual's expertise is in. If, for example, they are an expert in medieval astrology, but have made a statement regarding medieval herbal manuscripts in which they are not an expert then one needs to be aware of this. The blanket using of the term expert is problematic without being very precise about what their expertise encompasses. Of course, being a specialist in an area doesn't mean you are right as specialists sometimes get things wrong. Ideally one would have the opinion of many specialists on a specific subject.
When it comes to the Voynich itself I would say that we should be very wary of considering anyone an expert on the manuscript as so little is currently know about the manuscript and so many questions are left unanswered. There can really be said to be no experts on the Voynich I think. However, as I have said, there is scope for specialist opinion on parallel or related subjects.
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| The Constructed Language Hypothesis |
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Posted by: pfeaster - 02-04-2024, 12:03 AM - Forum: Analysis of the text
- Replies (30)
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Just about every list I've seen of potential solutions to the VMs includes the hypothesis that Voynichese might be a constructed language. But compared to other broad categories of hypothesis -- such as cipher, natural language, and hoax -- the constructed language category doesn't seem to be getting much attention these days. I'm curious why that is -- whether it's because people feel this explanation is unlikely, or because nobody is quite sure how to go about evaluating it.
Friedman and Tiltman apparently took the idea seriously -- see e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- but I don't have a good sense for how far they actually pursued it. Bowern and Lindemann (2020) bring it up too, but mainly to suggest that a conlang would "pattern morphosyntactically with other natural languages, but be anomalous at the root level," referencing Lingua Ignota, Balaibalan, and Enochian as points of comparison. Still, for a constructed language that diverges from expected patterns, the work of Wilkins, Dalgarno, Cave Beck, and so on might be more relevant: even though they're all a couple hundred years later than the VMs, they might help give us some idea of how "weird" an early constructed language might be, and in what general ways.
So how could we imagine a conlang differing from a natural language in the fifteenth century? And how would efforts to figure it out need to differ from efforts to identify a "precursor" natural language for Voynichese?
For what it's worth, I see that our friend Athanasius Kircher You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a universal language in his Polygraphia Nova et Universalis that looks structurally a bit like Voynichese:
Quote: xxxvii36 xxx21 ii5 xxiii8 xxviii10 xxx20 xxx22 xvii29 xxx28 xiii16 xxix12 xxx22 xii3 xxx28 ii13 xxix5 viii25 xxix20 xxx28 xxiii40
For another fun example of a text in a seventeenth-century philosophical language, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
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| Should we have a thread to refer theorists to? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 01-04-2024, 08:49 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (36)
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It happens quite regularly that someone comes to the forum having solved the manuscript. It's always in a different way, yet always kind of in the same way as well.
And then we go through the motions of explaining them about confirmation bias and one way ciphers and why Google translate is no good and that Latin actually has grammar beyond dictionary forms and that translations should be repeatable and so on.
Might it be useful if we had a thread with all these points, so we could refer people to section 2.4 of the "So you solved the Voynich manuscript" thread?
My perhaps naive hope is that if we show that we actually predict their methods because we have seen them so many times before, maybe they will understand more quickly?
Or do you think a thread like this would be a waste of time and have no effect at all on the mind still high on the sword in the stone syndrome?
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