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| The voynich manuscript as a diabolic tool to lure people into mental health issues? |
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Posted by: Kaybo - 18-11-2025, 01:22 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I have the feeling that some people can get very obsessed with the manuscript and that it can have a negative impact on their lives. I can see that it tries to lure me into it and it is very difficult to not loose myself. If I read about some theories, then I think some people are too much into it and that this has a bad effect on them.
I just want that out to be a warning. Take a break, if it is overwhelming you.
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| A conceptual internal plant match? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 17-11-2025, 12:33 PM - Forum: Imagery
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With the renewed interest in internal plant matching, I was reminded of a specific case that would be different from all the rest. It's basically the opposite of Stolfi's "complete plant" requirement - more of a conceptual match. I suspect that this is meaningful in some way, though I have no idea how. However, I understand it will appear as a stretch to many people.
I mentioned it briefly You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but didn't really focus on it. I will try to explain the situation as best as I can. We are comparing two parts of the drawings on f55v and f 99v : one "literal" visual similarity and one conceptual. It appears that the literal comparison was included in our spreadsheet at some point, referring to an old post by Wladimir D, number 12 here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I liked to think of the thing as a fancy moustache, but Wladimir called it a brush, so let's go with that since he clearly has the precedent. Let's look at the "brush" elements side by side:
So far, we are still talking about a match in shape. I know that they are not exactly the same, but look a bit closer and similarities pile up. Both structures have a horizontal line on top, which leaves an opening for connecting to a vertical stick in the middle. Both are structured symmetrically, with longer parts hanging down towards the outsides. Both have ca. 5 parts on each side, though it's hard to count. The similarity between both structures seems to increase when the far right part on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is considered "extra", which could be defended on the basis of the linework.
Even their absolute size looks somewhat similar, though this is difficult to compare.
Anyway, that's all pretty standard, we have a bunch of comparisons like these. What makes it weird though, is what happens when you zoom out on their respective pages and look to the bottom right of each "brush".
I will argue that these are two elephants, each expressed differently due to their presence in a root and a leaf respectively. I know this is a claim that will elicit booing from the audience, but there is some supporting evidence:
- Voynich plants are commonly accepted to contain zoomorphic and other non-botanical elements. The concept of shaping plant parts like something else is not unique to the VM (see the "plants of the Alchemists" tradition or plants like Palma Christi...) but some of the concrete utterances are not attested elsewhere. The VM plants are unusually prolific in zoomorphic inclusions, even by conservative assessments.
- f99v is on the same side of the same sheet as f102r. This means that originally, the "elephant leaf" (partially hidden in the fold) sat right next to the "mandrake". It's on the same folio that's infamous for having the best small-plant matches with large plants. One of those is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , generally thought of as zoomorphic. Another, corresponding to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , has been given a feline tail on the right, showing evidence for partial zoomorphology.
- What requires more squinting? Seeing the big green leaf as an elephant's head with a curled-up trunk, or seeing it as a reliable rendition of an existing plant species? I'd love to see what the "literal plant pictures" crew makes of this one.
Might one be the being as it can be expressed with the luscious properties of a leaf, and the other with the sharp and wiry properties of a root? You can even overlay them and draw a decent elephant, although this is just for fun as it cannot have been the intention of the MS.
This begs the question: isn't the shape of the leaf actually too good? Did 15th century Europeans have access to images that capture the qualities of elephants to this extent? We're all familiar with the ridiculously bad examples from bestiaries, they get posted a lot (if you haven't seen them before, google "medieval elephant", you're in for a treat). But those tend to be from early centuries, when depictions of animals in general weren't particularly reliable. To test whether the elements of the leaf were known as elephant properties by the early 15th century, we must find at least: - the trunk is able to curl upwards
- the trunk has a "ribbed" texture, or something like that
- the ears are large
- if the root also refers to the elephant, we must see some tusks that are much longer than those of a boar and point forward instead of straight up, with an upwards curve
At first glance, it appears that there are many elephant images, but certainly no standard. All of the properties I mentioned are toggled at will in every possible combination. But it's not hard to find them combined. For example, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from an early 14th century bestiary basically has them all, including the profile of the head, position of the eye, and even right facing depiction:
![[Image: minimg102376.jpg]](https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/minimg102376.jpg)
WAIT A MINUTE
I just saw something while writing this post and reading the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page about elephants where I found the above image. When I pointed out that the elephant is right next to the mandrake on the same foldout, I did so because I wanted to show a similarity of symbolism in plants, as well as the connections between this particular small-plant foldout and the large-plant pictures of the herbal section. But apparently the bestiary entry for elephants is all about mandrakes?
Quote:Male elephants are reluctant to mate, so when the female wants children, she and the male travel to the East, near Paradise, where the mandrake grows. The female elephant eats some mandrake, and then gives some to the male; they mate and the female immediately conceives. The female remains pregnant for two years, and can only give birth once. When it is time to give birth, the female wades into a pool up to her belly and gives birth there. If she gave birth on land, the elephant's enemy the dragon would devour the baby. To make sure the dragon cannot attack, the male elephant stands guard and tramples the dragon if it approaches the pool.
So not only do we see the VM elephant leaf facing a mandrake root. It is also positioned above remarkably blue and flowy roots, which is part of the same mandrake-eating story: the elephant eats the mandrake, then gives birth in a pool. Guess I got more conceptual connections than I expected...
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| Negative Reviews of the Voynich Manuscript |
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Posted by: rikforto - 15-11-2025, 12:33 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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For the amusement of the forum, I have curated someYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Feel free to add any you feel I have neglected.
Quote:This book is trash. It is pictures of a book and the language is not modern. You cannot read anything - just look at a few pictures.
Utter trash - translate the book!
Indeed, why has no one thought of translating the book? Is anyone in the Voynich community working on that?
Quote:An unnecessary publication of meaningless babble. Don't waste your money on this. Wait till someone finds its origin and worth before buying; but I suspect this will never happen. And if you're an artist looking for inspiration or insight into something profound, don't be fooled. You won't find it here.
Always glad to see a fellow critic of the art, I suppose.
Quote:It's a good book other than the fact that there was nude people. I brought this for my son. I in dump going through and tearing out the pages and super gluing the ones that had some on one page to others.
Ah yes, the inherent eroticism of the balenological section, I believe we can all relate.
Several people seem to have reviewed different products, which contain some incredible crankery I had not seen before.
Quote:The author dreamed of Leonardo da Vinci and the twin he didn't have offering her the solution to the manuscript. It's all a recipe for absinthe. Never mind what the actual text might say! The author's dreams have spoken. This is a terrible waste of time.
AI has been a terrible development in a lot of ways, but outsourcing dream crankery to a machine is one of the more unforgivable. You used to have to get your insane ideas from Leonardo da Vinci's dream twin, but now we've automated the process, taking the human touch out of it. Chat-GPT lacks the verve needed to fabricate this.
Quote:The author isn't an academic schooler! Book is a rant on jews God and herbs. The book also needs editing.
I sympathize! Never once in my life have I seen a rant about "Jews" that did not desperately need editing, though that's rarely the biggest problem I have with them.
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| Confirmation that spaces are really spaces |
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Posted by: quimqu - 14-11-2025, 11:41 PM - Forum: Analysis of the text
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It seems I can now confirm with objective data that the spaces in the Voynich text are real functional spaces.
For a long time I have seen people on the forum questioning whether the spaces in the Voynich are real or artificial, and whether they have any specific role. So I prepared a small experiment to see how coherent the spaces really are and whether they might have a clear function within the manuscript’s writing system.
What I did was apply a Byte Pair Encoding (BPE) segmentation model. This model does not need to know anything about the language. It simply takes the entire text as a sequence of characters with no spaces or punctuation, identifies which pairs of characters are most frequent, and merges them. After a certain number of merges, the model produces a set of segments that can be interpreted as statistical morphemes. With these segments, you can try to reconstruct the original words by segmenting them into the most likely units, and then compare whether these boundaries match the original spaces.
Before applying the method to the Voynich, I validated it with Latin. I took a Latin corpus, removed the spaces and punctuation, and trained the BPE model on the continuous sequence of characters. Once I had the set of segments, I tried to segment the original Latin words and counted how many word beginnings and endings were correctly recovered. With a simple model, the results are roughly: - About 82 percent correct word boundary detection.
- About 67 percent of words completely correct (the predicted start and end boundaries match the real ones).
- An average of about 3 segments per word.
These results show that even a very simple and completely blind method can reconstruct a large share of real word boundaries.
After that, I applied exactly the same process to the Voynich. First I concatenated all the text from paragraphs and long lines (avoiding labels), removed the spaces, and trained the BPE model on the continuous sequence using the same parameters as for Latin. The model produced a fairly compact set of about 265 unique segments. Then I returned to the original Voynich words and segmented them using the model’s dictionary.
The results are surprisingly high. Out of roughly 37 thousand words:- The model correctly recovers around 90 percent of word beginnings and endings.
- About 8 out of 10 words have both boundaries correct.
- The average is fewer than 2 segments per word, which suggests a fairly stable structure.
This suggests that the spaces in the Voynich are not random. The model, which only sees character statistics and knows nothing about meaning or how words are constructed, is still able to predict the same boundaries that the writer marked with spaces. If the spaces were decorative or had no function, the model should not be able to recover them with this level of accuracy.
It appears that the spaces in the Voynich show strong internal coherence, comparable to or even higher than that of real Latin text subjected to the same procedure. The spaces seem to mark meaningful units in the system, not arbitrary additions.
As extra, here I attach a list of the morphemes found:
Total number of segments: 67931
Number of unique segments: 265
Top 50 most frequent segments:
'ol' 2121
'ch' 1868
'or' 1599
'y' 1513
'ar' 1453
'aiin' 1444
'd' 1371
'che' 1361
's' 1301
't' 1233
'daiin' 1230
'al' 1201
'l' 1153
'o' 1118
'qot' 1026
'k' 1006
'sh' 1002
'chedy' 976
'e' 966
'ot' 948
'chy' 887
'she' 869
'qok' 860
'ain' 823
'ok' 814
'chey' 808
'eedy' 796
'ey' 791
'yk' 784
'dy' 779
'chol' 740
'olk' 737
'p' 736
'dar' 679
'edy' 668
'ody' 650
'yt' 639
'eey' 628
'dal' 628
'am' 611
'cth' 549
'ee' 546
'r' 542
'cho' 539
'chor' 531
'od' 520
'qo' 504
'chdy' 481
'shedy' 454
'os' 445
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| Quasi-Datable Phenomena |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 14-11-2025, 08:40 PM - Forum: Imagery
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This is just the start of a list of 'things' in the VMs illustrations that seem to have certain chronological information associated with them, shall we say. The more specific, the better. The first example is the Cosmic Comparison with BNF Fr. 565 (Paris, c. 1410) and Harley 334 (Paris, 2nd Q 15th).
The clothing style of tight cuffs on bloused sleeves occurred c. 1420 - or 1420-1430 or something like that, and comparatively similar hat styles have also been shown to prevail in the first half of the 15th C. as well.
The half-arcaded tub with nine women (f78v) might be connected to Harley 4431 (Parie, 1410-1414) Pizan's Muses.in an arcaded tub.
Other examples?
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| An inference of the species of the plant on f3r |
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Posted by: JonathanZhang0813 - 14-11-2025, 02:49 PM - Forum: Imagery
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Hi! My name is Jonathan Zhang, and I come from Shanghai, China. I was born on August 13, 2010 (yes, I'm just fifteen years old). I'm very interested in the Voynich Manuscript.
In discussion of the plant that appeared on page f3r, I've got an inference (or theory) of its species. It might have been the Sempervivum.
Sempervivum is a genus within the family Crassulaceae.
The most typical form of Sempervivum is a ground-hugging, flower-like rosette. Although it is short, when it blooms, the plant sends up a single, upright, unbranched flower stalk from the center of the rosette.
Its leaves are arranged in a tight spiral, layered upon each other, forming a very regular shape that looks like a pagoda or a rose.
Many Sempervivum varieties have leaf tips or margins adorned with white, cobweb-like "threads" or cartilaginous edges. A notable example is Sempervivum arachnoideum (Cobweb Houseleek), whose leaf tips produce white, silk-like hairs that cover the rosette like a spider's web, giving it a white-edged appearance.
The hairs, glandular dots, or color variations on the leaves can, in specific varieties and under certain conditions, create a texture similar to "spots."
Sempervivums' color changes with the seasons, light exposure, and temperature variations. In environments with ample sunlight and significant temperature differences (especially in autumn and winter), the leaves can turn from green to bright red, purple, or reddish-brown.
As alpine succulents, they possess short, dense fibrous root systems, an adaptation to shallow soils like rock crevices.
Sempervivum species are native to mountainous regions of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East.
The Roman scholar Pliny the Elder recorded its uses in his Natural History. In medieval Europe, the plant was believed to counteract poison and treat earaches, insect bites, and skin problems. Its sap was sometimes used as an anti-inflammatory agent.
And by the way, I also noticed an interesting fact. The word "Sempervivum" can be separated into two Latin words—"Semper" (which means "forever") and "vivum" (which means "life"). connecting together, which means "immortality."
Actually, the Sempervivum does not look like the plant displayed on page f3r…… The leaves of the plant displayed on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are growing opposite or whorled. The leaves of Sempervivum grow rosulate or fascicled.
So there is a closer "guess" concerning the leaf patterns. It might be the Sedum Rupestre.
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Korean Solution |
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Posted by: rikforto - 13-11-2025, 07:36 PM - Forum: Theories & Solutions
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Voynich enthusiasts! The VMS has vexed and befuddled scholars for nearly a century, but I believe after 90 minutes of working on the problem that the answer was in front of us all along: It is a phonetic rendering of a Middle Korean alchemical text, written by a mysterious Lee Si-eun. From the introduction, we can see that it deals with the transformation of the spirit and other alchemical concepts.
Note: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but an answer to the frequent question, "How likely is it that I failed to solve the manuscript since I got a translation?" The answer, for those who do not wish to read through the entire "solution" here, is it that is it is very likely, as in about an hour and a half plus write-up time I was able to get an alchemical-sounding translation, complete with poetic language and the author's own signature. The Korean here is mostly nonsense---and I apologize to any Korean speaker reading it for my crimes against your language---but with some very light massaging I was able to get a wonderfully "poetic" English rendering. I am hardly the first person to do this, with the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. being probably the most widely discussed example of a good faith version of this genre, but hopefully the notes here in Italics will answer why it seems quite likely that a would-be solver found a translation even if the solution is wrong, and why the mere fact of having a translation is less impressive than it looks. And if you're wondering why I went to all this trouble, besides getting a bee in my bonnet about this argument, it did actually help me see Voynichese in a new light and how very malleable the text is if you're not careful and that was instructive for me.
The key to seeing this is noticing the similarity to Korean linguistic features. Just as Voynich has 3 kinds of vowels, a o and y, Korean has 3 kinds of vowels, light (ㅏ and ㅗ), dark (ㅓ and ㅜ), and neutral (ㅡ and ㅣ).
Note: This is an extraordinary amount of freedom, and even more than it looks. There are several combined vowels for each category, meaning that if I did not like a translation, I could just keep changing vowels until Papago---we'll get there---gave me something semi-coherent. The half explanation, leaving out ㅐ, ㅔ, ㅞ, ㅝ, ㅒ, ㅕ, ㅛ, ㅠ, and probably a few others is extremely typical of this sort of announcement, and you'll save yourself some grief checking for it.
Likewise, just as there are 14 basic Voynich Letters, there are 14 basic Korean consonants.
k ㅈ
f ㅂ
t ㅅ
p ㄷ
ch ㄱ
d ㅇ
e ㅁ
g ㄹ
l ㄴ
m ㅋ
q ㅎ
r ㅌ
s ㅊ
h ㅍ
The bench letters represent the doubling of consonants that are typical in Korean, with sh representing ㅉ.
Note: Typical of this sort of "solution", I have no explanation for why these correspondences are the way they are, which is also a problem with how the vowels match a particular EVA letter as well. But if you can get past that large problem, this does not provide any degrees of freedom, so while I left myself plenty in the vowels, I would like some credit for not overloading the system even further at this point.
The other key to recognizing the Korean nature of the text is to see the various particles and verb endings from the text:
aiin 은/는
ain 을/를
air 하고
aiir 이/가
al 고
ar 서
an 의
or 면
ol 이나/나
oiin 로/으로
os 도
y 습니다/ㅂ니다
Note: Why are these lined up this way? Well, like I say, you just have to see! Joking aside, I did have some strategy with spacing and frequency that I can explain if anyone really wants the details, but mostly I just slapped them down in my notebook while yelling YOLO. There are no degrees of freedom here when rendering the Voynichese into Korean, but two features of Korean probably gave me some wiggle room in the machine translation. The pairs 은/는, etc. are phonetic alternates, so I could choose them based on the rest of the word; in 1400 they were actually written down in Chinese characters without phonetic variation, so I could defend this choice in a sincere proposal, though, obviously, this isn't that. Likewise, several of these can be both noun and verb endings, albeit with different meanings, giving a less clear signal to a machine which part of speech their attached root belongs to. This too is a real feature of Korean that occasionally trips up both human and machine readers, so it is perfectly valid, at least if you accept my table handed down from on high.
With this in hand, we are able to translate the first paragraph of the manuscript:
Fachys ykal ar ataiin shol shor cthres ykal sholdy
Shory ckhar ory kair chtaiin shar ars cthar cthar dan
Syaiir sheky or ykaiin shol cthoary cthor daraiin sa
Ooiin oteey oreos roloty cthar daiin otaiin or okan
Dairy chear cthaiin cphar cfhaiin ydaraishy
bogiteu ojjigo aeching yaesineun kkina kkeumyon sseuchimit ijjigo kkingneungseumnida kkeungchiseumnida jjiso icheuseumnida jjihago giseun kkeuso achiteu sseuso sseuso ie tiga kkeummijjiseumnida myon ojjeuneun kkeuina ssoachiseumnida sseumyon achineun ta oro onmimeuseumnida ocheumeudo jonosiseumnida sseuso ineun isieun myon ojjeue aichiseumnida gimeuso sineun tteuso ppeuneun euaechoga kkeumnida
보기트 어찌고 애칭 얘시는 끼나 끄면 쓰치밑 이찌고 낑능습니다.
끙치습니다.
찌서 이츠습니다.
찌하고 깃은 끄서 아치트 쓰서 쓰서 이의 티가 끔미찌습니다.
면 어쯔는 끄이나 써아치습니다
쓰면 아치는 타 어로 엇미므습니다.
어츠므도 저너시습니다.
쓰서 이는 이시은 면 어쯔의 아이치습니다.
기므서 시는 뜨서 쁘는 으애초가 끕니다.
Note: I gave it away already, but the main tricks here are that all those vowels are basically arbitrarily chosen and the Korean is gibberish, though I'm going to stick to the bit and call it "poetic". Unlike a lot of these translations, however, the sentence breaks are as principled as the verb endings (though, see above for how principled they really are) because Korean has regular, pronounced finite verb endings and matrix verbs are sentence final, sentence endings are never ambiguous. Most solutions require a better explanation for how the text was broken up, though I should not leave it implied in my explanation here.
The Korean is rather poetic and non-standard, but using Papago, a popular Korean to English translator maintained by Naver in South Korea, and Chat-GPT, I was able to arrive at the following poetic translation:
If you turn off your perception, you'll gain weight under your teeth and whine.
It is moaning.
It is steaming.
When the essence (깃, spirit) cools or is turned off, the body or teeth (symbol of speech/expression) grow distorted or heavy.
Then what? One must either turn it off or use it.
If you use it, the arch doesn't go well with the other word
So it is, so it is.
I'm Lee Si Eun, pen name "Eoohoo", who wrote this.
So the poem is hot and I'm going to end it.
Note: It is certainly steaming! There is no poetic tradition even identified here, even though I was encouraged to see it that way by Chat-GPT, and while my Korean is not good enough to render a final judgement, I know enough about how this was created to say that Chat-GPT is, politely, offering me some bovine fecal matter. (I did rely on it only for the translation, but it volunteered a bunch of analysis that colored some of my choices as I edited Papago's much rougher first pass. I will not argue if this gets thrown in the AI trash pile, not least of all because the solution is not in good faith and I'm not attached to it, but I really did try to stay well on this side of an AI solution.) The machine translators' main goal is to output a text, and so it covered up a bunch of problems in the underlying Korean for me, making this entire exercise alarmingly smooth; I thought I was going to have to push a bit harder to get a translation!
There are several important observations to be gleaned from this. Perhaps most importantly, we have recovered the author's name, as well as a pen name. Hopefully we are able to identify his work from elsewhere, or perhaps we have identified a new scholar of Korean alchemy. The emphasis on teeth is interesting, perhaps symbolizing the way the written word can lead someone to alchemical enlightenment. The importance of heating and cooling, long known to be a key part of alchemy, is also suggestive. Trying to keep the male body hot with Yang energy would be an important goal of any Korean alchemist, and we see here that cooling may lead to the speech and body becoming heavy. However, at the end, we see that the alchemist is also worried about too much heat, which in traditional Korean thinking could lead to a melting of metal (金) energy and must be tempered. This duality between hot and cold reflects yang and yin, and is likely to be the subject of the rest of the text. Further translation and study is needed to unlock the rest of the secrets.
Note: All this speculation is original, and though grounded in actual things I know about traditional Korean medicine, I am just spinning a tale based on an English "poem" extracted from nonsense Korean. It is worth exactly that much.
I am sure I will face a good deal of criticism for this, as Voynich enthusiasts are very harsh towards solvers. But I would ask: How likely is it that I correctly found alchemical ideas about the spirit, heating, and the special significance of teeth? How likely is it that I identified the author? Does the fact that it references a poem seem like a coincidence? And all this in just an hour and a half of work!
Note: As is hopefully apparent at this point, a few degrees of freedom of some elbow grease on the translation and you will end up with some writing on alchemy. This doesn't disprove your solution, of course, but the fact of having a translation is much less impressive than it might seem if you have not been around the manuscript very long. The fact that I was able to add to that crowded field so quickly---you'll have to take my word that it was about 90 minutes to get this system---and could probably plug a few holes with a bit more work shows how easy it is to get the manuscript to give up some alchemy if you want it too. The biggest thing I've not addressed with this example is volume of translation, but I think it's clear I could scale this if I was willing to spend the time, which I'm not; the relative ease of getting the first paragraph is very much repeatable because it relies on the feature of machine translation that it always outputs meaningful text by design. Manipulating the vowels is a little tedious, but I could continue to torture Korean until Papago screams in something resembling alchemical English. All in all, it is almost a given that someone proposing a solution has found something in their translation that hints to it being correct, as it happens quite frequently.
A final observation for people who have been directed here because they think it is unlikely they got a translation by chance: People usually fall back on this when their arguments about their translations are not going over well. Hopefully I've shown that it is a dead end to rely on the existence of an English translation to carry you through and would ask if you see your work in my example here: Do the correspondences come out of nowhere (at least as you've explained them)? Are they a simple substitution, which will not allow a translation of any text because of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? Are there choices being made creating degrees of freedom that you have not justified? Is the underlying language poetic at best, and garbled at worst? Are you overly relying on translation and English gloss, either human or machine, to smooth that out? Nearly 100% of translations to date have been from some combination of arbitrary sound assignment giving degrees of freedom and further massaging when rendering the final interpretation of the text---and so that likelihood is that statistical prior that your arguments must overcome.
To everyone else: I will answer inquiries about my method here provided they are in the spirit that I think this approach is a wretched failure. If you want the full experience of discussing a novel solution in 2025, I can direct you to a scattered and incomplete accounting on a website ill-suited to actually making an argument for my methodology and a bunch of forthcoming TikTok and YouTube videos, but unfortunately I am not so committed to the bit to have actually created them so you'll have to play along. But in all seriousness, if you're curious about the inner-workings of how I made this pastiche, ask away!
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