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+--- Thread: Getting close to a source for f85r2 (/thread-4453.html)
Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Koen G - 07-01-2025
I was digging deep into the "Hausbuchs" and related traditions. Bull hunting, you know. This eventually led me to the Katalog der deutschsprachigen illustrierten Handschriften des Mittelalters (KdiH).
This led me to the section: 87.3. Heinrich Laufenberg, ›Regimen‹ You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And from there to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Images here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Now comes the important part. In three consecutive folios (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), we see:
- A lady with a flower (summer of life)
- An older woman with a stick and a chain (autumn of life)
- A doctor with a skull cap holding up a vial of yellow urine to the light to perform uroscopy
Note that this MS is a bit late (1455), and it is part of a cluster of various very popular, interconnected traditions (like the Hausbuchs). I am not saying that this exact book was a source for the VM. Unfortunately, many of the other preserved ones closest to this one have their images missing one way or the other.
Anyway, here you go. To me, this is as close as I've ever gotten to proof that the VM makers used physical sources.
A bit on uroscopy and the appearance of doctors (machine translated from German):
Quote:Medical illustrations found in all subgroups are the bloodletting man , the zodiac man , the urine examination and the bloodletting . The latter forms of treatment were carried out by the physician, surgeon or barber. It is not possible to distinguish between the university-trained doctor, the surgeon and the barber based on the illustrations, so the descriptions do not specify them more precisely and always refer to the doctor or physician. In the picture they can be identified by various attributes such as the red cap (the so-called cappa), a long coat and a glass of urine.
[...]
Uroscopy, which is frequently depicted , is performed by the doctor holding a glass of urine up to the light and thus analyzing the color and consistency. This activity is particularly significant for the representation of the profession of medicine
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Note that the large foldout (Rosettes+verso) uses no red. Blue may have been a substitute.
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - bi3mw - 07-01-2025
Yes, the Physician in particular is convincing.
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By the way, there is also a bull on a hillside.
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - nablator - 07-01-2025
When the doctor comes, you're as good as dead. Makes sense.
The older woman holds a stick and a "chain" (rosary?) and in the VM what looks like a flower braid maybe, far from similar.
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - bi3mw - 07-01-2025
Machine translation of the text for the physician:
"So rechtz noch des nasses quare
Ich verley nature sin art
D mensche nacht elemente sizen
An hertze im gespigen
Nacht den och all messe hirt
Naturen clemence sur
Nusun wilt im suche.
Nebru deh nach humit recht regen
Must di alles do leber
An mer den clemence suechet"
Translation into English:
"So judge according to the moist content,
I hand over to nature its property.
Man is ordered according to the elements,
Hidden within the heart.
Accordingly, all measures aim
At what nature grants in its mildness.
If you wish to investigate this,
Pay close attention to moisture and proper balance.
This must govern all life,
For nature seeks mildness."
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Koen G - 07-01-2025
For the remaining figure, I am fairly certain that he is also a doctor with a red skull cap. This time left uncolored because, again, they had no red on this folio. He's pretty close to this doctor who is just gesturing at a book (I don't think he actually represents one of the "four" categories).
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Koen G - 07-01-2025
There's a woman with a nice spindle. The overall image is different for obvious reasons, but I like the pose and positioning of the attribute.
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Koen G - 07-01-2025
Last one for today, there is also a diagram with "terra" in the middle, that contains two lines connecting to the surrounding stars. Compare to f86r.
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - bi3mw - 07-01-2025
(07-01-2025, 11:13 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the remaining figure, I am fairly certain that he is also a doctor with a red skull cap.Sorry, but I stand by my interpretation as “digitus virilis”.
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Koen G - 07-01-2025
(07-01-2025, 11:45 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, but I stand by my interpretation as “digitus virilis”.
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I have no idea about the meaning or lack thereof of the VM diagram. I'm just arguing that they used a source for this diagram, and it must have been an earlier MS with a similar image sequence as the Karlsruhe MS.
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2 - Aga Tentakulus - 08-01-2025
I suspect the 4 stands.
Orb / Nobility
The lifted finger / the scholars
With the rings, presumably the dyer / the craftsmen
The plant / the peasants.
Ich vermute die 4 Stände.
Reichsapfel / Adel
Der gehobene Finger / die Gelehrten
Mit den Ringen, vermutlich der Färber / das Handwerk
Die Pflanze / die Bauern.