(15-07-2026, 05:04 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was curious about medieval illustrations of lions, so I've been doing some searching. And I found something interesting...
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Look at the second image it shows. It's Radim's lion... except it identifies it as being from the Rochester Bestiary (1225–50) and not from the Book of Enoch.
Am I misunderstanding something here, Radim?
Also, The Complete Book of Enoch: Standard English Version, by Jay Winter, can be read online...
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It contains no images. And the text you quoted is a very short extract from the Second Parable, seemingly highlighted simply because it contains the word "lion". The connection to the VMS plant with the lion-like root seems to be getting more and more tenuous.
And finally, for now, I can't find any evidence that the Book of Enoch was originally illustrated anyway... opinion seems to be that it wasn't.
I will try once more, patiently, to outline my train of thought. That plant with the lion is not an illustration from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch; rather, it relates to a parable from the Book of Enoch in which the author employed symbolic, figurative language. And now, a word about the lions. A quote from the Book of Enoch: "In those days, the angels shall return and hurl themselves toward the east—upon the Parthians and the Medes—to rouse the kings and instill in them a spirit of unrest, causing them to descend from their thrones and emerge from their resting places into the midst of their herds like lions and hungry wolves." Here, I will venture to use a historical interpretation provided by Google AI, though I have also personally consulted a real-life historian on this matter.
This specific passage from 1 Enoch 56:5 describes a pivotal, end-times event known as the Eschatological Invasion from the East. In apocalyptic literature, the Parthians and Medes represent the ultimate geopolitical threat to the Holy Land.Here is a breakdown of the passage's meaning, historical context, and role in the book:Historical and Symbolic ContextThe Parthians and Medes: At the time this section (the Parables of Enoch) was written (around the 1st century BCE/CE), the Parthian Empire was Rome’s fiercest rival and a terrifying military superpower to the east of Judea. The Medes were an ancient Iranian people traditionally linked with the Persians.Angelic Incitement: The text shows a cosmic hierarchy where human kings do not act entirely on their own. Divine messengers (angels) intentionally stir up "a spirit of unrest" to use these pagan nations as instruments of judgment.The Metaphor of Predators: Comparing the rulers to "lions and hungry wolves" emphasizes their desperate, aggressive, and unstoppable advance as they descend upon the land.What Happens Next in the NarrativeIf you follow the verses immediately after this passage (1 Enoch 56:6–8), the invasion follows a precise, dramatic arc:The Advance: The eastern armies invade the land of God's elect and trample it underfoot.The Battle for Jerusalem: They reach Jerusalem ("the city of my righteous"), which becomes a massive obstacle for them. They are unable to conquer it.Internal Chaos and Destruction: Divine confusion strikes the invaders. They turn on one another in a civil war ("brother against brother").The Swallowing by Sheol: The slaughter is so immense that their bodies fill the valleys, and Sheol (the underworld) opens up to swallow the sinners whole.Biblical and Apocalyptic ParalellsThis theme of a final, desperate invasion by foreign kings from the north or east is a core trope in Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writing:The Book of Ezekiel (Chapters 38–39): The famous prophecy of Gog of Magog invading Israel from the far north, only to be destroyed by divine intervention on the mountains.The Book of Revelation (16:12): The drying up of the Euphrates River to prepare the way for "the kings from the East," followed by the gathering for the final battle at Armageddon.
(15-07-2026, 05:48 PM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15-07-2026, 05:04 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was curious about medieval illustrations of lions, so I've been doing some searching. And I found something interesting...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Look at the second image it shows. It's Radim's lion... except it identifies it as being from the Rochester Bestiary (1225–50) and not from the Book of Enoch.
Am I misunderstanding something here, Radim?
Also, The Complete Book of Enoch: Standard English Version, by Jay Winter, can be read online...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It contains no images. And the text you quoted is a very short extract from the Second Parable, seemingly highlighted simply because it contains the word "lion". The connection to the VMS plant with the lion-like root seems to be getting more and more tenuous.
And finally, for now, I can't find any evidence that the Book of Enoch was originally illustrated anyway... opinion seems to be that it wasn't.
I will try once more, patiently, to outline my train of thought. That plant with the lion is not an illustration from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch; rather, it relates to a parable from the Book of Enoch in which the author employed symbolic, figurative language. And now, a word about the lions. A quote from the Book of Enoch: "In those days, the angels shall return and hurl themselves toward the east—upon the Parthians and the Medes—to rouse the kings and instill in them a spirit of unrest, causing them to descend from their thrones and emerge from their resting places into the midst of their herds like lions and hungry wolves." Here, I will venture to use a historical interpretation provided by Google AI, though I have also personally consulted a real-life historian on this matter.
This specific passage from 1 Enoch 56:5 describes a pivotal, end-times event known as the Eschatological Invasion from the East. In apocalyptic literature, the Parthians and Medes represent the ultimate geopolitical threat to the Holy Land.Here is a breakdown of the passage's meaning, historical context, and role in the book:Historical and Symbolic ContextThe Parthians and Medes: At the time this section (the Parables of Enoch) was written (around the 1st century BCE/CE), the Parthian Empire was Rome’s fiercest rival and a terrifying military superpower to the east of Judea. The Medes were an ancient Iranian people traditionally linked with the Persians.Angelic Incitement: The text shows a cosmic hierarchy where human kings do not act entirely on their own. Divine messengers (angels) intentionally stir up "a spirit of unrest" to use these pagan nations as instruments of judgment.The Metaphor of Predators: Comparing the rulers to "lions and hungry wolves" emphasizes their desperate, aggressive, and unstoppable advance as they descend upon the land.What Happens Next in the NarrativeIf you follow the verses immediately after this passage (1 Enoch 56:6–8), the invasion follows a precise, dramatic arc:The Advance: The eastern armies invade the land of God's elect and trample it underfoot.The Battle for Jerusalem: They reach Jerusalem ("the city of my righteous"), which becomes a massive obstacle for them. They are unable to conquer it.Internal Chaos and Destruction: Divine confusion strikes the invaders. They turn on one another in a civil war ("brother against brother").The Swallowing by Sheol: The slaughter is so immense that their bodies fill the valleys, and Sheol (the underworld) opens up to swallow the sinners whole.Biblical and Apocalyptic ParalellsThis theme of a final, desperate invasion by foreign kings from the north or east is a core trope in Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writing:The Book of Ezekiel (Chapters 38–39): The famous prophecy of Gog of Magog invading Israel from the far north, only to be destroyed by divine intervention on the mountains.The Book of Revelation (16:12): The drying up of the Euphrates River to prepare the way for "the kings from the East," followed by the gathering for the final battle at Armageddon.
So what's the point of the unrelated lion image? It adds absolutely nothing to your argument. You found the VMS illustration of the plant with a lion-like root, and you found the word "lion" in the Enoch second parable... and literally, that is all you've got here. However much you might "venture to use a historical interpretation" of Enoch, none of it is remotely relevant while you can show precisely zero plausible connection with the VMS.
I'm sorry, Radim, but I think I and others have been the ones showing patience here, but mine isn't infinite. All I'm seeing is some wild fantasy with no basis in rational deduction from careful observation. You're going to need a *lot* more than that to convince anyone.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy your endeavours, but I'm done here.
(15-07-2026, 06:06 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15-07-2026, 05:48 PM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15-07-2026, 05:04 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was curious about medieval illustrations of lions, so I've been doing some searching. And I found something interesting...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Look at the second image it shows. It's Radim's lion... except it identifies it as being from the Rochester Bestiary (1225–50) and not from the Book of Enoch.
Am I misunderstanding something here, Radim?
Also, The Complete Book of Enoch: Standard English Version, by Jay Winter, can be read online...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It contains no images. And the text you quoted is a very short extract from the Second Parable, seemingly highlighted simply because it contains the word "lion". The connection to the VMS plant with the lion-like root seems to be getting more and more tenuous.
And finally, for now, I can't find any evidence that the Book of Enoch was originally illustrated anyway... opinion seems to be that it wasn't.
I will try once more, patiently, to outline my train of thought. That plant with the lion is not an illustration from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch; rather, it relates to a parable from the Book of Enoch in which the author employed symbolic, figurative language. And now, a word about the lions. A quote from the Book of Enoch: "In those days, the angels shall return and hurl themselves toward the east—upon the Parthians and the Medes—to rouse the kings and instill in them a spirit of unrest, causing them to descend from their thrones and emerge from their resting places into the midst of their herds like lions and hungry wolves." Here, I will venture to use a historical interpretation provided by Google AI, though I have also personally consulted a real-life historian on this matter.
This specific passage from 1 Enoch 56:5 describes a pivotal, end-times event known as the Eschatological Invasion from the East. In apocalyptic literature, the Parthians and Medes represent the ultimate geopolitical threat to the Holy Land.Here is a breakdown of the passage's meaning, historical context, and role in the book:Historical and Symbolic ContextThe Parthians and Medes: At the time this section (the Parables of Enoch) was written (around the 1st century BCE/CE), the Parthian Empire was Rome’s fiercest rival and a terrifying military superpower to the east of Judea. The Medes were an ancient Iranian people traditionally linked with the Persians.Angelic Incitement: The text shows a cosmic hierarchy where human kings do not act entirely on their own. Divine messengers (angels) intentionally stir up "a spirit of unrest" to use these pagan nations as instruments of judgment.The Metaphor of Predators: Comparing the rulers to "lions and hungry wolves" emphasizes their desperate, aggressive, and unstoppable advance as they descend upon the land.What Happens Next in the NarrativeIf you follow the verses immediately after this passage (1 Enoch 56:6–8), the invasion follows a precise, dramatic arc:The Advance: The eastern armies invade the land of God's elect and trample it underfoot.The Battle for Jerusalem: They reach Jerusalem ("the city of my righteous"), which becomes a massive obstacle for them. They are unable to conquer it.Internal Chaos and Destruction: Divine confusion strikes the invaders. They turn on one another in a civil war ("brother against brother").The Swallowing by Sheol: The slaughter is so immense that their bodies fill the valleys, and Sheol (the underworld) opens up to swallow the sinners whole.Biblical and Apocalyptic ParalellsThis theme of a final, desperate invasion by foreign kings from the north or east is a core trope in Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writing:The Book of Ezekiel (Chapters 38–39): The famous prophecy of Gog of Magog invading Israel from the far north, only to be destroyed by divine intervention on the mountains.The Book of Revelation (16:12): The drying up of the Euphrates River to prepare the way for "the kings from the East," followed by the gathering for the final battle at Armageddon.
So what's the point of the unrelated lion image? It adds absolutely nothing to your argument. You found the VMS illustration of the plant with a lion-like root, and you found the word "lion" in the Enoch second parable... and literally, that is all you've got here. However much you might "venture to use a historical interpretation" of Enoch, none of it is remotely relevant while you can show precisely zero plausible connection with the VMS.
I'm sorry, Radim, but I think I and others have been the ones showing patience here, but mine isn't infinite. All I'm seeing is some wild fantasy with no basis in rational deduction from careful observation. You're going to need a *lot* more than that to convince anyone.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy your endeavours, but I'm done here.
Oscroft, thank you for your time. A wise woman I consult with said I wouldn't get anywhere and that it would take two years for anything to change. Based on your way of thinking and reasoning, I would point you to the posts about the creation of Adam and the casting of Sataniel out of heaven; those are more demonstrable. The mere fact that the root resembles a lion represents a huge step forward compared to the beginning of the year, when I used to get questions like, "So, where is the lion's head?" Thank you.
I'm out of here, too. With this kind of interpretive freedom, the book could even be compared to *Max and Moritz* (a children's book). Unfortunately, taking this liberty is by no means proof of anything; it's nothing more than taking too many liberties.
If you don't understand that, then there's no point in arguing any further.
Good luck anyway....
(15-07-2026, 07:31 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm out of here, too. With this kind of interpretive freedom, the book could even be compared to *Max and Moritz* (a children's book). Unfortunately, taking this liberty is by no means proof of anything; it's nothing more than taking too many liberties.
If there is one thing we can always commend the Voynich solver for it is the ability to demonstrate confirmation bias when confronted with imagery
In the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch), the "leaders of the days" (or "leaders of the thousands") are described as astronomical and calendrical beings who govern the progression of the seasons. These angelic authorities oversee the precise 364-day calendar and ensure that weather patterns, vegetation cycles, and agricultural activities on Earth follow the divine order.
Sources and citations:
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Tu
ḥfatu l-Ġarā
ʾib:
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Quote:I'm out of here, too.
From the very beginning I treat this thread not as the solution of Voynich Manuscript but as some personal reinterpretation of the art present in the manuscript.
I may be wrong but I feel that Radim is most time just having fun and not claiming that he reveals some absolute truth.
I don't intend to spend more time here, Radim, but I'll leave with one suggestion...
When you present your comparisons, leave out *everything* that is not directly contained in either VMS or Enoch. Presenting multiple random images from unrelated documents provides absolutely nothing of any relevance!
You need to compare the actual contents of VMS with the actual contents of Enoch (which I now understand is not illustrated), and *only* that - and do it in a far deeper manner than making single-word matches.
For example, if Enoch talks about angels, and you see illustrations that you think look like angels in VMS... even presenting a thousand illustrations of angels from other historical documents presents absolutely no evidence of connection between VMS and Enoch whatsoever.
If you can grasp that simple fact, you might be able to rethink your ideas and present them in a more rational manner. So, suggested step 1: Random image spamming gets you nowhere, so stop doing it.
(16-07-2026, 02:47 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When you present your comparisons, leave out *everything* that is not directly contained in either VMS or Enoch. Presenting multiple random images from unrelated documents provides absolutely nothing of any relevance!
You need to compare the actual contents of VMS with the actual contents of Enoch (which I now understand is not illustrated), and *only* that - and do it in a far deeper manner than making single-word matches.
For example, if Enoch talks about angels, and you see illustrations that you think look like angels in VMS... even presenting a thousand illustrations of angels from other historical documents presents absolutely no evidence of connection between VMS and Enoch whatsoever.
If you can grasp that simple fact, you might be able to rethink your ideas and present them in a more rational manner. So, suggested step 1: Random image spamming gets you nowhere, so stop doing it.
For me, the 'random' image spamming is the most interesting part of this thread. He has posted many images that -while they did not prove an Enoch connection- did lead to genuinely interesting comparisons of imagery. Regardless of their relevance to his theory, he
is digging up stuff we haven't seen before.
Earlier in the thread there were also occasionally interesting comparisons with text such as the comparison with the rosettes and some enochian text. (page 15 of his linked pdf in the OP of this thread).
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attachment=16622]
So I get what you're saying, and don't disagree with you on the relevance of many of his images (I have told him as much on multiple occasions), but telling him to just stop posting images as comparisons will lead to this thread being less valuable, not more.
And when it comes to the lion, I don't think he was saying "here is a lion from enoch", he was just demonstrating that the plant root looks like a common medieval depiction of a lion. Yes, this boils down to "it looks like a lion, and the word 'lion' is somewhere in Enoch", but that's a seperate issue.
(16-07-2026, 03:24 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (16-07-2026, 02:47 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When you present your comparisons, leave out *everything* that is not directly contained in either VMS or Enoch. Presenting multiple random images from unrelated documents provides absolutely nothing of any relevance!
You need to compare the actual contents of VMS with the actual contents of Enoch (which I now understand is not illustrated), and *only* that - and do it in a far deeper manner than making single-word matches.
For example, if Enoch talks about angels, and you see illustrations that you think look like angels in VMS... even presenting a thousand illustrations of angels from other historical documents presents absolutely no evidence of connection between VMS and Enoch whatsoever.
If you can grasp that simple fact, you might be able to rethink your ideas and present them in a more rational manner. So, suggested step 1: Random image spamming gets you nowhere, so stop doing it.
For me, the 'random' image spamming is the most interesting part of this thread. He has posted many images that -while they did not prove an Enoch connection- did lead to genuinely interesting comparisons of imagery. Regardless of their relevance to his theory, he is digging up stuff we haven't seen before.
Earlier in the thread there were also occasionally interesting comparisons with text such as the comparison with the rosettes and some enochian text. (page 15 of his linked pdf in the OP of this thread).
So I get what you're saying, and don't disagree with you on the relevance of many of his images (I have told him as much on multiple occasions), but telling him to just stop posting images as comparisons will lead to this thread being less valuable, not more.
And when it comes to the lion, I don't think he was saying "here is a lion from enoch", he was just demonstrating that the plant root looks like a common medieval depiction of a lion. Yes, this boils down to "it looks like a lion, and the word 'lion' is somewhere in Enoch", but that's a seperate issue.
Hmm, yes, those are good points. In seeing this as solely an attempt to support the Enoch hypothesis, I'd neglected the value of uncovering other illustrations for their own, unrelated, insights.
And yes, I'd just assumed the 'random' illustrations were from Enoch - I mean, isn't that what we might expect when someone tries to connect one document with another?
So yes, you're right... there definitely is benefit in finding other illustrations that look similar to VMS ones, in general VMS research terms. But conflating them within attempts to prove Enoch seems self-defeating.
So, Radim, do you think there might be value in spinning out a new discussion for uncovering illustrations similar to VMS, but keeping the Enoch argument focused on things that are actually directly relevant to VMS?