(28-05-2026, 05:44 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (28-05-2026, 02:28 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Princeton University Library, Ethiopic Manuscript No. 42, fol. 47v. The Cycle of Kings (Awədä Nägäśət), Collection of Divination Texts. Image via You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ok, thanks.
Says „created 1788-1800“ (our kind of years…)
So at least 350 years younger than VMS, surely not an inspiration for that.
Maybe even more an incidence, that coptic/ethiopian manuscripts are back for some centuries, regarding technique and style.
Not very helpful.
This particular book is younger, but the history of the Awda Nagast manuscript dates back to the 15th century. Origin: The text was probably compiled in the 15th century as a guide for traditional Ethiopian soothsayers and scholars called däbtära. How it works: The book consists of 16 circular tablets containing letters and numbers in the Ge'ez language. A person seeking advice would perform numerological calculations that would direct them to one of these circles. The circles represent the days, nights, sun, moon, and cardinal points, and refer to chapters (called "lakes") that contain specific predictions. Alternative names: It is also often called the Amashafa Bahr ("Book of Lakes"). History of use: Divination with this book has been very popular for centuries to predict the future, health, or fate. Although it is a unique historical artifact, the practice and its oracle rituals have been officially banned by church authorities in Ethiopia. The Awda Nagast and the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) are deeply connected through the specific environment of Ethiopian Christian and esoteric culture, where the texts complemented each other in their view of the universe and the spiritual world. The main pillars of their connection are the following areas: 1. Cosmology and the movement of celestial bodies The Book of Enoch contains an extensive section called the Book of Heavenly Lamps (chapters 72–82). Here, the angel Uriel shows Enoch how the sun, moon, stars, days of the year and winds work. The Awda Nagast makes practical use of this Enochian model of the universe. These 16 circular diagrams (astrological tables) are directly based on the Ethiopian concept of the calendar, astronomy and cosmic cycles, which were popularized in Ethiopia by the Book of Enoch. The folios You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. - f70r2 show these individual elements, which, with the help of angels sent by God, influence events on earth.
I have already mentioned the connection between VMS and Awda Nagast before.
Current summary of findings and insights into the symbolism of the Virgin Mary in the VM.
Medieval representations of tubs.
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(29-05-2026, 07:01 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Medieval representations of tubs.
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Thank you for the links, but if I were looking for a visual similarity, I would use, for example, this image from Liber Trotula. But I always try to make sure there is a direct connection to a specific text from the book of Enoch, or some other parallel. Just similarity is not enough, Trotula shows that. But thank you again.
(29-05-2026, 07:55 PM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (29-05-2026, 07:01 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Medieval representations of tubs.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thank you for the links, but if I were looking for a visual similarity, I would use, for example, this image from Liber Trotula. But I always try to make sure there is a direct connection to a specific text from the book of Enoch, or some other parallel. Just similarity is not enough, Trotula shows that. But thank you again.
It is interesting that all the miniatures, and also the Trotula example, show tubs made of wood, and all have vertical lines delineating the slats of wood, held together by various means. Although a few in the vms could be said to be like this, others are clearly different.
(29-05-2026, 08:27 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is interesting that all the miniatures, and also the Trotula example, show tubs made of wood, and all have vertical lines delineating the slats of wood, held together by various means. Although a few in the vms could be said to be like this, others are clearly different.
Indeed.
But the nature of the individual tubs in the Zodiac seem to be fundamentally different from that of the communal tubs in Bio, on f78v-f81r (which is a single illustration) and f81v.
I have my theory about the former, but I am not allowed to mention it here. Suffices to say that, while they still may have been "inspired" on other books, they were not meant to exist, and were added to the first few diagrams as an afterthought and by accident.
As for the latter, they look like they are made of masonry and fixed to the floor; even with a narrow baseboard or molding around the bottom edge, and clay-like pipe connectors at the top and bottom. The big tub on You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. seems to have a hollow space under the tub's proper, presumably for heating the water by fire.
In the Bio section there are also many individual tubs, but they too seem to be fundamentally different from the two categories above. I don't see how one can dismiss the old theory that they are thinly disguised depiction of human body organs.
And then there are many other communal pools that are depicted as being dug into the floor. Possibly natural, given their irregular edges.
I suppose that we can find similes to all three classes of Bio tubs in the Balneis and maybe other books. Isn't that so?
Are there any examples of ladies in tubs in any
Zodiac-related text?
All the best, --stolfi
(20-02-2026, 07:47 PM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Content and "heresy": The book tells of angels (Guardians) who descended to earth, had sex with human women, and fathered giants (Nephilim)
And the Nephilim/Naphil fathered the Elioud/Eljo. I think I have seen similar in the vms.
(29-05-2026, 09:17 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (29-05-2026, 08:27 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is interesting that all the miniatures, and also the Trotula example, show tubs made of wood, and all have vertical lines delineating the slats of wood, held together by various means. Although a few in the vms could be said to be like this, others are clearly different.
Indeed.
But the nature of the individual tubs in the Zodiac seem to be fundamentally different from that of the communal tubs in Bio, on f78v-f81r (which is a single illustration) and f81v.
I have my theory about the former, but I am not allowed to mention it here. Suffices to say that, while they still may have been "inspired" on other books, they were not meant to exist, and were added to the first few diagrams as an afterthought and by accident.
As for the latter, they look like they are made of masonry and fixed to the floor; even with a narrow baseboard or molding around the bottom edge, and clay-like pipe connectors at the top and bottom. The big tub on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems to have a hollow space under the tub's proper, presumably for heating the water by fire.
In the Bio section there are also many individual tubs, but they too seem to be fundamentally different from the two categories above. I don't see how one can dismiss the old theory that they are thinly disguised depiction of human body organs.
And then there are many other communal pools that are depicted as being dug into the floor. Possibly natural, given their irregular edges.
I suppose that we can find similes to all three classes of Bio tubs in the Balneis and maybe other books. Isn't that so?
Are there any examples of ladies in tubs in any Zodiac-related text?
All the best, --stolfi
I understand your question, but again I have to return to the topic of this thread in this thread and that is the hypothesis that VM is the book of Enoch. No baths, balneotherapy, herbs, recipes, female organs, blood vessels, etc. It is unnecessary to discuss baths here as water containers. As I mentioned in the examples, either it is a pedestal representing sheol (hell). Or it is a container in which the Virgin Mary sits and water flows from it as a source of grace and healing. Large pools depict, for example, the lower and upper waters underground and above the firmament.
(30-05-2026, 07:38 AM)Radim Dobeš Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Jorge_Stolfi" pid='85014' dateline='1780085866']
[quote="Linda" pid='85010' dateline='1780082857']It is interesting that all the miniatures, and also the Trotula example, show tubs made of wood, and all have vertical lines delineating the slats of wood, held together by various means. Although a few in the vms could be said to be like this, others are clearly different.
Quote:[I understand your question, but again I have to return to the topic of this thread in this thread and that is the hypothesis that VM is the book of Enoch. No baths, balneotherapy, herbs, recipes, female organs, blood vessels, etc. It is unnecessary to discuss baths here as water containers. As I mentioned in the examples, either it is a pedestal representing sheol (hell). Or it is a container in which the Virgin Mary sits and water flows from it as a source of grace and healing. Large pools depict, for example, the lower and upper waters underground and above the firmament.
I meant that having seen the tub examples, i now do not wish to call the zodiac items tubs, as they do not fit the general description of a medieval tub. I thought your man in the clothes and his pose, or the ladies on pedestals might have some merit, as I see the containers depicting architecture or culture.