(10-05-2023, 04:18 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess the correction to junge happened because mi(l)ch was understood as milk (suckling) i.e. young.
French: chevreau de lait = young goat
If "gaismich" or "gaisiunge" is a young goat, what is "Gens" ???
gens = Gänse, Plural of Gans/goose
I think I just found a documented reference to "mich" as "milch": it is "Voll-mich" for "Vollmilch" in the Rheinisches Wörterbuch:
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if I understand this entry correctly. But strangely it just refers to another dictionary, and no examples are given.
I think not.
Here full me probably stands for an expression.
Now it would have "voll mich vertwütscht" It has caught me not only a little, but "full" completely. Here it does not say half but full.
Whole, abslut, now also
Ich glaube nicht.
Hier steht voll mich wohl für einen Ausdruck.
"Jetzt hätte es mich voll vertwütscht" Es hat mich nicht nur ein wenig, sondern "voll" und ganz erwischt. Hier heißt es nicht halb, sondern voll.
Ganz, abslut, jetzt auch
"Mich" does seem to be a vaeriant of Milk in SW-Germany. The Voll-mich reference is clearly linked to Vollmilch.
Even more interesting if you search 'mich' you find two expressions:
Kaufmich -> merchant
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Zwingmich -> stubborn person
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In both cases '-mich' stands for Michl which stands for -guy
While not Austro-Bavarian at all, it could indicate 'gaismich' in the Herzogenburg document is indeed the goat-guy which would make sense regrading the reference in the St. Pölten Urkundenbuch for 'Geisiunge gans' - goat-boy. It would mean the same thing. Geese to be paid for the services of a goatherder. Though 4 geese per year for a goatherder seems excessive.
It also doesn't make sense in the VM-context as goatherder and frankly I have a hard time rooting this expression in the South Alpine region. I tried to find more '-mich' expressions in documents from monasterium.net but there are tons of entries for the usual meaning 'me'.
(15-05-2023, 12:36 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Voll-mich reference is clearly linked to Vollmilch.
It does, and, moreover, it specifies the pronunciation (which excludes the possibility of a typo), but what confused me it does not provide the meaning but just links to an altogether different dictionary's article of "Voll-mi
lch" (not Voll-mich). I was not able to quickly locate the scanned version of the Rheinisches Wörterbuch to check it first hand.
(15-05-2023, 12:36 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even more interesting if you search 'mich' you find two expressions:
Kaufmich -> merchant
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Zwingmich -> stubborn person
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Indeed, what I did yesterday I used the wildcard search (supported by Woerterbuchnetz) to look up *mich. What attracted my special attention was the AHD "chasmich". The article for that says "see kamich", but then unfortunately there is no article for "kamich", except for in another dictionary where it means white mold on liquids, which is probably irrelevant. It is still not clear whether that relates to "chasmich" or not.
(15-05-2023, 12:36 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In both cases '-mich' stands for Michl which stands for -guy
While not Austro-Bavarian at all, it could indicate 'gaismich' in the Herzogenburg document is indeed the goat-guy which would make sense regrading the reference in the St. Pölten Urkundenbuch for 'Geisiunge gans' - goat-boy. It would mean the same thing. Geese to be paid for the services of a goatherder. Though 4 geese per year for a goatherder seems excessive.
It also doesn't make sense in the VM-context as goatherder
This may be promising. The amount of geese per year would probably depend on the size of the flock, not on the goatherder's appetite. Regarding the VM-context... it's still at odds. "Goatmilk" fits the VM-context, but not those legal contexts. On the other hand, the goatherder is at least possible in the legal contexts, but does not fit the recipe context. However, it must be one of the two - or some altogether different thing.
However, I would not dismiss the goatherder offhand. It's often forgotten that the phrase is not "so nim gas/mich", it's "so nim gas/mich o" (whatever the "o" stands for). Now, as I commented just yesterday on Koen's blog, one of the prominent "so nim" contexts is 3 Kings 19:4:
Quote:Es ist genug, so nimm nun, HERR, meine Seele
Where "HERR" (Lord) is the one who is addressed here. What if a goatherder is the addressee of the VM's "recipe"?
Blah blah, so take ye, the goatherder, that "o" stuff.
An "o" or "a" at the end of a sentence stands for "auch". also
This is not only the case in Switzerland, but also in the Bavarian language area. "a or o"
"a" before a word means "a" "a goas"= (a goat).
Around Zurich "ä Gaiss".
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Imagine the VM turns out to be a secret goatherding manual!
I still think 4 geese as tax for a goatherder seems excessive. Remember this was usually a yearly tax paid to the feudal lord whose employee the goatherder was who in turn paid the goatherder. It might make more sense if both goatherder and a large flock of goats belonged to the feudal lord / property owner, see my post on Bestandsvieh.
Regarding "chasmich":
"kamich" means "kahmig" - mit Kahmhaut überzogen. It's the biofilm floating on top of a standing waterbody, also called residue film. -mich is often the suffix -mig in dialects.
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This is also interesting regarding recipes, "so nim kamich o" might be interpreted as "so take the residue film off". "o" can also mean off" as in "ohauen" -> to chop off
In practice this is important for fermentation processes where the relevant yeasts and bacteria are sitting in this biofilm. Especially in traditional vinegar and wine production. While undesired in winemaking, for vinegar this residue film floating on top is very important, see "mother of vinegar"
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I agree we must not assume "gaismich" means the same in the legal documents as in the VM, even if they are roughly from the same place and time.
ohauen / ahauen = anhauen anschlagen to hit / to strike.
olaa / alaa = anlassen to start
obrennen / abrennen = anbrennen. to burn.
ozapfen / azapfen = anzapfen.
o + a = an.
In Austria there are tons of phrases where "o" = "ab"
I hau mi o - ich hau mich ab
I stich di o - ich stech dich ab
I muaß oneman - ich muss abnehmen
drahs o - dreh es ab
It's impossible to say whether a single "o" means an/ab/auch or something entirely else without context
Never heard of it that way.
Only in this variant.
I hau mi ob - ich hau mich ab
I stich di op - ich stech dich ab
I muaß obeman - ich muss abnehmen