That's another interesting question related to dialect regions: is the difference between poch and pock regional?
To make X, we need a k and an s. The "s" sound is added as a genitive, just like you could say both "goat liver" and "goat's liver" in English. The k-sound seems to suggest that the underlying dialectical form is pock, not poch.
(18-07-2023, 11:30 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The k-sound seems to suggest that the underlying dialectical form is pock, not poch.
It will depend on how poch was pronunciated, if the final ch was pronunciated as a k or not.
Usually it is pronounced similar to "j" in Spanish. But maybe our German speakers know more about poch vs pock?
boc, poch, pockh were synonmes of Bock (male, goat, ram ... and other meanings) according to
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. by Wackernagel, Wilhelm, 1806-1869; Rieger, Max, 1828-1909, pag.39-40:
[
attachment=7499]
[
attachment=7500]
Man muss schon Unterscheiden. Altdeutsch ist kein altes Alemannisch oder Bayrisch.
So bedeutet "Buch" nicht Buch sondern Bauch.
Buch wird "Buech" geschrieben.
Manchmal ist auch von "puch" die rede. Jetzt ist es nicht mehr weit bis "poch".
You have to make a distinction. Old German is not old Alemannic or Bavarian.
For example, "Buch" does not mean book but belly.
Buch is written "Buech".
Sometimes the word "puch" is also used. Now it's not far to "poch".
Paradebeispiel für eine Falschinterpretation.
Welch rozz ain tzeprochen ruchk hat, so nim verprante alte soln tzu puluer
[If a horse has a cough with mucus, then take burned old salt and turn it into powder.]
Wenn ein Pferd Husten mit Schleim hat, dann nimm verbranntes altes Salz und verwandle es in Pulver.]
Wenn ein Pferd ein zerbrochenen Rücken (Durchfall) hat, so nimm verbrannte alte Sohle zu Pulver.
Sole = Salzwasser und das brennt nicht. Wir schreiben Sohle ohne «h» daher Sole. Gemeint ist eine alte Schuhsohle.
Warum? Die Kohle zerrieben zu Pulver wirkt wie eine Kohletablette. Senkt den Säuregehalt, beruhigt den Magen und bindet Giftstoffe.
Prime example of a misinterpretation.
Welch rozz ain tzeprochen ruchk hat, so nim verprante alte soln tzu puluer.
If a horse has a broken back (diarrhoea), take burnt old sole to powder.
Sole = salt water and that does not burn. We write Sohle without an "h", therefore brine. What is meant is an old shoe sole.
Why? The charcoal ground into powder acts like a charcoal tablet. It lowers acidity, soothes the stomach and binds toxins.
The essential part for us is that the "x" in "pox" implies a k-sound. This suggest that the underlying dialectical form is "pock" rather than "poch".
[
attachment=7501]
"The essential part for us is that the "x" in "pox" implies a k-sound."
This is not mandatory. For the ear, it can also be a "gs". So "bock" is also "bogg" or "box" or "bogs".
The same with "fuchs" "fox" "fux" "fugs", "fuggs". depending on the region.
In the first part, as I understand it, "box" has nothing to do with "bock".
(18-07-2023, 07:50 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can pox be a variation of pock?.
Yes, definitely.
Even in contemporary German, 'Bockleber' and 'Bocksleber' would be valid words. Considering there were myriads of local dialects and no formalised grammar in the 15th century, people more or less wrote words as they sounded to them so all those variations should not be surprising.
k -> kch transitions are very prominent in Tyrolean for example.
None of this definitely proves that 'pox' indeed means 'buck's' but considering the recipes it's not unlikely.
One alternative as pointed out in Aga Tentakulus post is that it's an expletive. It can either be derived from 'bocks' meaning in the devil's name or from 'gotts' meaning in god's name and can be used in an oath or curse, see 'potz-'.
' Wrote:So helf ihm box füdloch, box lüs
That's some seriously vulgar Swiss swearing here
Box = bocks = "male goat's" = "the devil's".
The structure is often like this: "may the devil's something cause you harm".
One other thing that might be relevant for us is that the spelling with x (pox or box) appears more frequent when the devil is intended rather than the animal.
Edit: as Bernd wrote, in cases like "box" five wounds, it looks like God is meant rather than his counterpart with the cloven hooves. Still it looks like the expletive leans more towards x-use than the ingredient does.
I was just wondering since when the term "Pocken" has been used at all.
When searching and typing "Pocken" it always shifts me to "Bocken" (goat).
It seems to me the disease is listed here only as "Blattern/Blatern" (blisters).