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Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

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• Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  pjburkshire > 5 hours ago

  (Yesterday, 01:58 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Hi Behrooz, I looked through much of this thread and I personally think that one of the reasons you may not be gathering as much traction or discussion for your ideas is that they are all posted in this thread, instead of their own thread within their respective forum areas. 
  

  
  
  I think Koen and the other Moderators want the new members with novel ideas to keep to their own threads.  The reason I left the forum in 2024 was because I was scolded for posting all over the place and not staying in my own lane.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 5 hours ago

  (5 hours ago)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For example, if you made a thread to discuss whether the Pleiades-Botrus substitution stands up to scrutiny, you can discuss the specific details of that aspect there, and then state in the thread that what is being debated is part of your overall theory (with a link to this thread). In that sense, the theory isn't "split", but its more that the full elephant remains here, but the trunk, legs, ears and tail become visible elsewhere. If people find those parts of the elephant, they may be directed here to discuss to whole. 
  
  If you don't want to do that, that is completely fine. It's just my opinion on how best to promote the theory and my reasoning for why some of the issues you face occur. We can agree to disagree on that. 
  
  Anyway, I don't mean to derail your thread. I just wanted to be supportive.

  
  Thanks for your further notes and understanding.
  
  I do see your point about the value of having a separate subject focus thread. My concern is about its practicality for me, and others. Creating a separate thread means others will reply there as well, then I (and others) must respond in both (and more threads), further segmenting my thread involvements, and this is just not practical for me given how much time I have to devote to this forum.
  
  My alternative solution is, for those interested, is to use the google search box as in site: voynich.ninja.com “search term” option. 
  
  If you go to google search and type in (without the quote marks) that string, it will list you all the posts that the term in a more either/or way, for example you can search if “Botrus” has been discussed in this forum. If you want the search term to be something very specific, exactly as, then use quote marks. I am sure you know about this, but for others not knowing it, do this:
  
  In google search box type the following (“search term” being whatever it is you are searching for).
  
  site: voynich.ninja.com search term
  
  or, for more exact search
  
  site: site: voynich.ninja.com “search term”
  
  The above is a much more effective and inclusive way of addressing the point you are making.
  
  Now, I see the post by pjburkshire, and it is a good point.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  tavie > 4 hours ago

  (5 hours ago)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (Yesterday, 01:58 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Hi Behrooz, I looked through much of this thread and I personally think that one of the reasons you may not be gathering as much traction or discussion for your ideas is that they are all posted in this thread, instead of their own thread within their respective forum areas. 
  

  
  
  I think Koen and the other Moderators want the new members with novel ideas to keep to their own threads.  The reason I left the forum in 2024 was because I was scolded for posting all over the place and not staying in my own lane.

  
  
  No one is asked to "stay in your own lane", and the rules apply to longstanding members as much as new members.   
  
  The rule is "one thread per theory".  e.g. if someone claims they have deciphered the manuscript as Maltese, we don't want them to be shoehorning that into every current thread, triggering arguments about their solution and derailing it from the original topic.  Especially when there are rival solvers who start arguing it's their language, etc. The forum would become unreadable and confusing for newcomers.  So instead the person gets their thread for their Maltese solution.  They are perfectly entitled to comment on other threads, provided it's not aimed at promoting their Maltese solution.  
  
  That's all it is.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  pjburkshire > 2 hours ago

  (02-02-2026, 02:57 AM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  In my view, the author of the Voynich manuscript was Margaret, Countess of Tyrol (Tirol) (1318-1369), named after parts of a favorite castle Casanova Castle (among others she used) she frequented that was called Maultasch (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) (the castle is said to have included swallowtail battlements, but lost over time [“The large complex consists of fortresses and ring walls with swallow-tailed battlements”]. But other castles she used even now display such swallow battlement features, such as the Runklestein Castle.
  

  
  
  I know nothing about Margaret, Countess of Tyrol.  I didn't even know her name before I read your post.  Can you tell me what you think the nymphs are in the Voynich Manuscript?  Also, can you tell me what you think the stars are?

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 2 hours ago

  (2 hours ago)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know nothing about Margaret, Countess of Tyrol.  I didn't even know her name before I read your post.  Can you tell me what you think the nymphs are in the Voynich Manuscript?  Also, can you tell me what you think the stars are?

  
  I actually was in the same position before studying the Voynich manuscript! So, you are in good company! I am learning about your question still and when I feel more confident I can elaborate more. One thought I have already shared that I am increasinglhy confident about is the following.
  
  In medieval times they took astrological "sciences" very seriously, even though its power of explaining events were debated. Royal and noble courts had astrological advisors for not just political and military, but also personal health and life question, reasons. Astrological judgments are not easy to remember, it is very very detailed and many medieval scientists studied them, pro or con. So, for a "lay" noble countess, it would be very important not only to know her charts in detail, but also to have them easily accessible like a handbook. 
  
  But later in life, the same handbook could have been used to add her final details for her legacy. She may have had the handbook developing throughout her life, so by 1369 when she died it could have shown its age on regular parchment. So, she could have legally arranged with prepayments to have it transferred to more durable vellum at a time she though her sworn enemies had left the scene.
  
  I think Margaret was devising a handbook to visually make it easy to know how, for her own birth chart, the days of the year could be benefic or malefic for doing things, whether health/personal, fertility related, or social and political needs. For this, it was also necessary to know fixed star maps, the ones she could see clearly when she went on the top of her castles! So, the gestures of the nymphs and the stars associated with them served for her to visually see if it was prudent to do this or that.
  
  Her geomantic interest also served the same. She could have a divination session, asking yes or no questions from a particular angel/star for doing A or B. 
  
  Clothed figures, in my view, represent actual people especially herself, the events signifying also a relation to the star readings around the time they happened. I will elaborate more on this, as my learning is also in progress. But, I have also suggested that the many nymphs representing fixed stars represent them as aspects of her own inner stars and selves associated with them. That is why she had the star maps and must have also had more of the planetary information about her birth in the pages that have gone "missing."
  
  Thanks for asking.

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 2 hours ago

  Aside from a post I have intended to write on the topic of motivation for the Voynich manuscript creation (still in progress, sorry), I have learned something interesting in the past few days, and I especially wish to hear from those who know Bavarian and German about what they think (sorry, to avoid misunderstanding, I will post it here than in other threads).
  
  This is about that “Botrus” reading of the label for Pleiades on page f68r3 that I had introduced earlier in this thread. I am now certain that the rendition of the word is not motivated by a cipher trick primarily, even if it is a secondary motivation for it.
  
  Rather, I now think it is a phonetic rendition of how the term would have been pronounced in Bavarian dialect around Tyrol. In other words, someone who preferred to express her text in a Bavarian or local dialect of German is writing a Latin/Greek expression for Pleiades (i.e., Botrus), in her local dialect. She is using Latin abbreviations to express a Latin word in a Bavarian/Tyrolian dialect.
  
  In a way, the choice may be even politically intended, since she may have wished to express matters in one of her preferred (mother) tongues. She was a daughter of Henry of Corinthia (House of Gorizia) and Anna of Bohemia; she grew up in a Bavarian-Austrian cultural context.
  
  I now believe that it is not reasonable to think someone would need to go to a great length to cipher a label for an image that clearly says what the label supposedly stands for.
  
  I think what is happening in that label is simply a phonetic/vernacular rendition of the term in a local or personal dialect, where the ‘t’ is simply not pronounced and is deleted. From what I have learned this is a common practice called “lenition” and it appears that it was particularly present in Bavarian and South Tyrolean dialects at the time where hard consonants were softened or even deleted altogether.
  
  So, if she meant to say Botrus and even considered the phonetic rendition of it according to the dialects she knew as a way of ciphering things a bit (which in this particular case I doubt it would have been necessary as a primary motivation, given the image association), she would have pronounced it like “Bowrus” or Borus, or, actually, simply as “Boarus.” This, according to the Occam's Razor rule, is the best and simplest explanation for what we see in that label.
  
  The transformation of an o to an oa itself signals such a lenition is in progress (she is writing it as she is pronouncing it and the a after o shows it is a phonetic preference). In “intervocalic lenition” (which is in fact what I think is happening here, a term you can google to learn more about it) a consonant between o and r can soften to a d or even not be pronounced, and therefore not be written down in a phonetic rendition of the term. It is possible even to consider the ‘oa’ shift as a regional characteristic for Tyrol in the 1300s-1400s.
  
  When we try to understand the Voynich manuscript language, we tend to expect that the spellings be as exactly as we find them in formally written books, rendered in academic Latin or Greek. But, for a personalized handbook of a Countess Margaret trying to understand her life in an astrological and cosmic context and wishing to leave it as a keepsake for very important personal and political reasons, it is reasonable to expect that her astrological autobiography and legacy of accomplishments would be expressed in one of her preferred, beloved tongues.
  
  I am thinking the finding that Bavarian dialect uses shorter words may have to do with Bavarian speakers' preference for and tendency to omit consonants when possible near vowels to make them shorter and softer—but this is just a guess and specialists can correct me.
  
  I am now more confident in claiming that by reading Botrus/Boarus, associated with the Pleiades image on f68r3, I have read a word in the Voynich manuscript itself (not just a marginalia) for the first time. Even the rendition of batin as baiin (daiin) (meaning "inner" or occultation or esoteric, the soul of a plant or star or anything ...) can now be explained by following the same Tyrolian/Bavarian dialect rule. I leave it to language experts to consider what the implication of this finding can be for understanding the VM text.
  
  For more information about how vowels and consonants have been treated in German historically, these may be worth looking into by the experts (since it is outside my field, I have not read them, or carefully but appreciate the details in which they have treated the subject):
  
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• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  pjburkshire > 1 hour ago

  The Tyrolean eagle on the coat of arms is a red eagle.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Quire 1, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has illustrations that some have called red birds or red dragons.  Is that how you connected Countess Margaret of Tyrol to the Voynich Manuscript?  Or, is there more that I am missing?

• RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 29 minutes ago

  (1 hour ago)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Tyrolean eagle on the coat of arms is a red eagle.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Quire 1, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has illustrations that some have called red birds or red dragons.  Is that how you connected Countess Margaret of Tyrol to the Voynich Manuscript?  Or, is there more that I am missing?

  
  That eagle can be best compared not with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page but with the root page on f46v. If you notice, in the root, aside from the wings, there are two red "horns" or whatever you may call them in the coat of arms image (in yellow). The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. images, I had associated with plant and (missing) blossom inside and star/sun ray in one my earlier posts. I think if you visit this page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you will see the various clips I had assembled. In the tail of the eagle also you see the blossom in other renditions of the coat of arms emblem (also clipped there). You will see similar images on f85r2 (on that same page I linked).
  
  I have not depended on a single clue to link the VM to Countess Margaret, and the research is still continuing, as I have not shared everything (both found or still finding). I think the first clue I found interesting a while ago was the castle swallowtail battlement features in castles to which she was also associated (thanks to Koen G.'s studies and clips and other pages I have linked). But there are many different clues I have pursued and am pursuing for the links and each time I look, I find more. Unfortunately, to learn about my tracing of the clues, you need to visit earlier pages of this thread. 
  
  Your question about relating the eagle to first page gives me a sense you have not looked into the earlier pages of this thread, so please do so. I had associated the first page images with NOT birds, but with images found on murals in a church in Denmark (so visit earlier posts in this thread to find out more). But, it is true that those plant V shape images on the first page can also be viewed as horn shapes, and they also appear in crowns or other elements in the VM or other pages I have linked.
  
  Please be patient with the progress of this thread. I am building the explanation as we move along, and this also requires that you acquainting yourself with material I have already shared, otherwise I will be repeating myself.
  
  Hope this helps.
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