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Getting close to a source for f85r2

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• Getting close to a source for f85r2

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Mark Knowles > 21-01-2025, 01:36 PM

  (21-01-2025, 08:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The region of provenance is certainly interesting. Aarau, Basel and Freiburg are relatively near each other, but Strassbourg is quite a bit further away.
  Lake Konstanz, which has been in the focus for several reasons, is also not far.
  
  On the other hand I am not aware of any candidate swallow-tail buildings nearby, but there are a couple of good reasons why that does not have to be a problem. Knowing a few would still be interesting of course.
  
  (The example in Val Müstair proposed by Jessica L. Scott is at the other end of Switzerland, and not at all near).

  
  Of course, without wishing to repeat myself ad nauseum and with the full expectation that at the moment what I say here will probably be completely ignored, before I was aware of any features in the manuscript associated with Germany and Switzerland my analysis of the rosettes folio lead me to conclude that the page represented a journey from the Duchy of Milan to the Papal Council of Basel in Switzerland via a route passing between Lake Constance and Lake Zurich. This would account very well for the illustrations of swallow-tail merlons and similarities found in manuscripts in the areas listed. Maybe some day someone will reread this comment and appreciate my bemusement or exasperation that this has been again ignored here.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  pedestrian > 21-01-2025, 01:40 PM

  Now this is going to be a stretch, possibly offtopic, and wouldn't be worth mentioning even as speculation except in the present context of the handwriting at top of pages - in this case You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - and a Zolfingen connection.
  
  There's plenty of speculation about the text at the top of f17r in threads like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  There's some idea that it might be an instruction to paint something, "Malen [something] ..."
  
  The second word looks like "aller", which might well be how the writer heard "alle" in a similar way he rendered "Malen" phonetically. But what is "aller"/"alle"?
  
  In the area around Zolfingen, in the local Schwyzerdütsch, "alle" means "jeweils".
  
  This might make further sense of a sentence starting "Malen" - Malen alle... / Malen jeweils... Paint each... / paint respectively...
  
  If that's getting closer to what is written on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (and the dialect boundaries and usage haven't changed significantly since the fifteenth century, admittedly another big if...), then it might contribute to the geographical origin question. 
  
  Here's a interesting resource, mapping some Swiss German dialect word and grammar variants:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  (Aga T, or anyone else, please jump in here to correct any wild misconceptions on the dialect)

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Koen G > 21-01-2025, 01:47 PM

  (21-01-2025, 08:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Lake Konstanz, which has been in the focus for several reasons, is also not far.

  
  Just to be clear, are we thinking about the possibility of the Council drawing in an international crowd (and their books) to the area?

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Mark Knowles > 21-01-2025, 02:02 PM

  The Council of Basel was from 1431 to 1437(when it was moved to Ferrara by the Pope, though it continued afterwards)
  The Council of Constance in Konstanz on Lake Constance(Bodensee) was from 1414 to 1418
  
  I associate the rosettes folio with a later journey to the Council of Basel. Though the author(s) may have visited the city of Konstanz on route to Basel. Any visitor to the Council of Basel would have spent some time there.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  bi3mw > 21-01-2025, 02:31 PM

  (21-01-2025, 02:02 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Council of Constance in Konstanz on Lake Constance(Bodensee) was from 1414 to 1418

  
  The Council of Constance was indeed a major event. The participants really did come from all over Europe (see map You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Mark Knowles > 21-01-2025, 02:35 PM

  (21-01-2025, 02:31 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (21-01-2025, 02:02 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Council of Constance in Konstanz on Lake Constance(Bodensee) was from 1414 to 1418

  
  The Council of Constance was indeed a major event. The participants really did come from all over Europe (see map You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

  
  The attendance at the Council of Basel was probably somewhat lower nevertheless I know that many clerics and some political figures from Northern Italy did attend it.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Aga Tentakulus > 21-01-2025, 03:50 PM

  About the Council of Basel: After the burning of Jan Hus in Constance ( Council of Constance ) nobody wanted to go to Basel.
  Jan Hus, first spokesman like Luther against the views of the Catholic Church.
  Freedom of speech had to be guaranteed without prosecution. Otherwise no one would have spoken his mind.
  
  The Upper Rhine begins at Lake Constance. It used to be thought that the river had its source there. Before the lake, it is now called the Alpine Rhine or High Rhine.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Mark Knowles > 21-01-2025, 04:02 PM

  (21-01-2025, 03:50 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About the Council of Basel: After the burning of Jan Hus in Constance ( Council of Constance ) nobody wanted to go to Basel.
  Jan Hus, first spokesman like Luther against the views of the Catholic Church.
  Freedom of speech had to be guaranteed without prosecution. Otherwise no one would have spoken his mind.
  
  The Upper Rhine begins at Lake Constance. It used to be thought that the river had its source there. Before the lake, it is now called the Alpine Rhine or High Rhine.

  
  The attendance at the Council of Basel was definitely lower. However many clerics and political figures from many places did still attend as can be seen from the records of the Council. The main issues that were discussed were the Hussite rebellion and Papal succession(in particular Antipope Felix V - Amadeus VIII Duke of Savoy).

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Aga Tentakulus > 21-01-2025, 04:44 PM

  Re F17r: See link.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  ReneZ > 22-01-2025, 12:05 AM

  (21-01-2025, 01:47 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (21-01-2025, 08:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Lake Konstanz, which has been in the focus for several reasons, is also not far.

  
  Just to be clear, are we thinking about the possibility of the Council drawing in an international crowd (and their books) to the area?

  
  There is nothing too specific about lake Konstanz (a.k.a. "Bodensee"). The Council has been mentioned numerous times, but it is 'just' an event that took place around the time of creation of the MS. I am not aware of any specific link (of any substance) between it and the MS. Ellie had a blog post about this, I think, but my recollection is vague.
  
  More interesting is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I won't say that this is hard evidence, but of some interest nonetheless.
  
  Finally, St.Gallen, with its famous library, is close to the Bodensee, and quite a number of MSs from this library have been brought up here for comparison material (for example in Nick's blog post above, but also for zodiac images and others).
  These may or may not be from the aera, so again nothing too specific.
  
  (This is why I used the vague term "in the focus").
  
  While on this topic, not everyone may be aware of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which also provides a link to the same general area.
  
  Edit: there is also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
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