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Getting close to a source for f85r2
- Getting close to a source for f85r2
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 17-01-2025, 10:33 AM
Hi Marco,
It's a shame that so little appears to remain of Laufenberg's work. If he was really active since 1411, I would have loved to see the illustrations in his earlier MSS. But as you say, even if the seasons cycle started with the Regimen, its early copies would still fall within the radiocarbon range.
Can we assume this particular sequence of illustrations was made specifically for Laufenberg's text?
I wonder what the odds are of an earlier Regimen still being out there.
Virtually impossible?
Maybe already discovered but not included in the catalogues we're consulting?
Or something in between: likely existing in some archive, but "needle in the haystack" scenario?
I was just re-reading the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the Regimen. It gives some indication that my suspicion of a source with reduced "redundant" images may be correct:
Quote:The Berlin and Karlsruhe manuscripts ( No. 87.3.1. and No. 87.3.4. ), on the other hand, contain a more reduced cycle. For example, illustrations were frequently deleted, possibly because it seemed redundant to show the scene of a doctor at the sickbed or a woman with a small child several times.
In the proposed scenario where the VM artist had such a reduced illustrative program in front of them, it is possible that they took the four remaining figures situated around the four seasons section, even though one or (in my opinion) two of those were section headers.
Do you have an idea of why the circle should be read counter-clockwise? This is also the way three out of four figures are facing, but would probably go against tradition. Although if the Regimen hypothesis is correct, the circular diagram itself was likely a novel composition.
Regarding the hand warmer, if the sample is fresh, the vial should be around 37°C. Might work in a pinch
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 17-01-2025, 06:33 PM
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Marco,
It's a shame that so little appears to remain of Laufenberg's work. If he was really active since 1411, I would have loved to see the illustrations in his earlier MSS. But as you say, even if the seasons cycle started with the Regimen, its early copies would still fall within the radiocarbon range.
Hi Koen,
it's a half empty / half full glass. I think we are lucky that so many copies of the Regimen survive. Of course, it would always be nice to have more.
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can we assume this particular sequence of illustrations was made specifically for Laufenberg's text?
As You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Laufenberg certainly used previous sources. Some of them were likely illustrated. Until we research the possible sources (Aldobrandino, discussed in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., is one of them), there is not much we can tell. Left, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (98v, 100r), right the ms you linked earlier: Aldobrandino You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (13v, 15v) - consecutive illustrations in both manuscripts.
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder what the odds are of an earlier Regimen still being out there.
Virtually impossible?
Maybe already discovered but not included in the catalogues we're consulting?
Or something in between: likely existing in some archive, but "needle in the haystack" scenario?
I don't know, but we can always hope....
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was just re-reading the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the Regimen. It gives some indication that my suspicion of a source with reduced "redundant" images may be correct:
Quote:The Berlin and Karlsruhe manuscripts ( No. 87.3.1. and No. 87.3.4. ), on the other hand, contain a more reduced cycle. For example, illustrations were frequently deleted, possibly because it seemed redundant to show the scene of a doctor at the sickbed or a woman with a small child several times.
In the proposed scenario where the VM artist had such a reduced illustrative program in front of them, it is possible that they took the four remaining figures situated around the four seasons section, even though one or (in my opinion) two of those were section headers.
That page is very well made. I only read it a few days ago, but it really is the best place to start. I understand that the passage you quote says that Berlin and Karlsruhe dropped some illustrations with respect to Munich (where the illustrations are only described) and Augsburg (the print edition). I am not sure what you infer from that statement?
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you have an idea of why the circle should be read counter-clockwise? This is also the way three out of four figures are facing, but would probably go against tradition. Although if the Regimen hypothesis is correct, the circular diagram itself was likely a novel composition.
I have no idea, but I found that "Breviari D'Amour" has a counter-clockwise season diagram (image from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., BL Royal 19 C I,1300 ca, f. 54v). Starting East: primavera, estieu, autumnus, ivern.
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 17-01-2025, 07:03 PM
Thanks, Marco. The CCW diagram is excellent: at least it shows that there wasn't an absolute CW imperative.
Regarding the dropped illustrations, my inference is this:
I imagine that the remaining illuminated Laufenbergs are only a fraction of what was once available. According to the page, certain copies left out images they may have found redundant. They talk about additional depictions of doctors at patients' beds or women with children being left out. If this was common, then it's possible that the women woth flowers or women with canes were also restricted to one each in certain copies. This might also explain why the border between flowers/canes fluctuates between the MSS we have left. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 17-01-2025, 07:52 PM
Thank you, Koen, it's much clearer now. I agree that the "fluctuation" in the ages images may be due to an attempt to reduce redundancy. I find it hard to think of a source that simply drops two "ages", rather than trying to make them more varied, but who knows?
About the insertion of the doctor, there are these lines from the text that seem to me to draw a parallel between the physician and the wisdom of old age. Could something like this be the reasons for inserting a doctor at the end(?) of the ages of life? Honestly, it's hard to tell and, as I said, I am not sure we can fully understand the meaning of the diagram without decoding Voynichese.
The verses are missing from Karlsruhe. In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. they appear across f.59r and f.59v (where the physician is illustrated).
Laufenberg Wrote:Der sieche vnd der gesunde
Hant vngeliche stunde
2035 Dauon so ist dem einen güt
Das dem andern we tät
Der alte vnd der Iunge
Hand ander wandelunge
Ander kelti ander hitze
2040 Dauon so bedarffe man witze
Der Artzot vnd der wysen
Die alten vnd die grysen
Hant empfunden vil hieuor
Machine translation:
The sick and the healthy
Have different times.
2035 What is good for one
May harm the other.
The old and the young
Have different conditions,
Different cold, different heat.
2040 For this, one needs the wisdom
Of the doctor and the wise.
The old and the gray-haired
Have experienced much before. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 17-01-2025, 08:45 PM
(17-01-2025, 07:52 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.About the insertion of the doctor, there are these lines from the text that seem to me to draw a parallel between the physician and the wisdom of old age. Could something like this be the reasons for inserting a doctor at the end(?) of the ages of life?
Marco: I will try to explain what I mean here. First of all, a "doctor" in the Middle Ages can be both a medical doctor, a scholar or a teacher. It was possible to specify, but there was more overlap between the groups than today. (Even though in some languages, we still might run into confusion over the word Doctor sometimes: PhD or medic?).
It looks like these manuscripts sometimes placed an image of an authoritative figure (named authority, generic doctor or scholar) at the start of the book and/or various chapters, presumably to underline the authoritative nature of the work. The German text is also filled with phrases like "as the master tells me" and so on, stressing the idea that the information comes from a learned source.
In the Berlin MS, as you showed, the pointing Doctor/Teacher sits at the beginning of the chapter on the seasons, just to visually underline again and again that this is a good text. The doctor inspecting the urine flask has exactly the same function for the next chapter, which is not really about urine. The initial D with the author's portrait I shared in the other thread has the same function again, in a related tradition.
Therefore, my reconstructed order for the source manuscript would be:
* It has the learned, pointing man introducing the seasons chapter, just like Berlin
* It has a combination of flowers and canes, certainly including one "cane and rosary" image.
* It has the urinoscopy immediately following the cane lady, as is standard in the tradition
The weird thing about the VM sequence is that for whatever reason, the most redundant images are removed. But the pointing scholar, flower lady, cane lady and urine-doctor appear in the correct order counter-clockwise. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
ReneZ > 18-01-2025, 12:43 AM
(17-01-2025, 10:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder what the odds are of an earlier Regimen still being out there.
Virtually impossible?
I do not know for a fact, but the appearance strongly indicates to me that the 'Hanschriftencensus':
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
is well maintained and based on all known scholarship related to German medieval manuscripts.
So what are the chances? I think slim, but there are still private collections without public catalogues.
From time to time, famous manuscripts in private collections are known and have been described in some detail,
but this is certainly rare.
I can't remember ever having seen a MS in a private collection being referred to in the Handschriftencensus. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 18-01-2025, 08:32 PM
Regarding the pointing man, I have a bit more of an idea what might be going on.
A full sequence of Laufenberg Seasons + Humors would look something like this:
1) SCHOLAR introduces this part of the book
2) FLOWER held by two or three season-people. I suspect these were originally three.
3) CANE + ROSARY for winter
4) URINOSCOPY shifts the topic to medicine
5) Musician, sanguine
6) Sword man, choleric (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
7) Sleeping or resting person, phlegmatic
8) BANKER/RICH MAN, melancholic
The introducing scholar (1) and the rich melancholic man (8) are of interest to us. One would appear at the start of the series, the other at the end. Interestingly, there is confusion about these in the Berlin and Karlsruhe MS. Berlin is the most "correct": it has the scholar to introduce the section, and a man with coins as the melancholic. However, Karlsruhe has only the Melancholic, but clearly replaced him with a scholar (compare to the Berlin scholar).
If the VM figure really has a ring, the rich melancholic would explain this - there seems to have been confusion with the scholar, perhaps since both sit at a lectern.
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 18-01-2025, 09:25 PM
Hi Koen,
I agree that Augusburg is likely close to the original for the Seasons. The fact that the woman with rosary stands for winter both in A and B seems significant.
To complete the evidence about scholars and Humours:
Zurich strangely has a scholar between Sanguine and Choleric, so it apparently illustrates Choleric. There is an inscription above the desk: "Inder zit var"? "In der zit var". The guy is writing a book, or maybe drawing an illustration (there is blue paint on the pages).
Augusburg has a guy sleeping at his desk for Flegmatic and a Melancholic man reading a book.
Munich has these descriptions for the humours:
- Sanguine: ein junger gesell der seittenspil tript (A young fellow who plays a "seittenspil")
- Choleric: ein man der zornklich gestalt hett (A man with an angry appearance)
- Flegmatic: ein mast sloffen man (A fat, sleepy man)
- Melancholic: ein man der jn buchen list (A man who reads books [?])
EDIT: I confirm that the Choleric illustration is missing from Berlin. A page was lost, line 2132-70 and probably the illustration was at the end of the missing page. The text resumes with the large initial for Choleric.
EDIT2: The melancholic is typically stingy and timid, rather than ostentatiously rich. A case full of coins seems to me a clearer illustration than showing off a big ring. - Sanguine: ein junger gesell der seittenspil tript (A young fellow who plays a "seittenspil")
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 18-01-2025, 11:12 PM
(18-01-2025, 09:25 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EDIT2: The melancholic is typically stingy and timid, rather than ostentatiously rich. A case full of coins seems to me a clearer illustration than showing off a big ring.
I see, I think you are right. Also all the other MSS you link seem to focus on melancholy as a bookish person (scholar) rather than anything to do with money.
Maybe the missing flower ladies were on a bifolio with the missing temperament - probably not very important.
For Zurich, I wonder if the scholar has been introduced there as a more general thematic illustration giving an air of authority, i.e. the general "learned person" type. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Aga Tentakulus > 18-01-2025, 11:41 PM
Three of the pictures have the same text. I can't quite see the fourth one, but it also seems to be the same Tet.