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Getting close to a source for f85r2
- Getting close to a source for f85r2
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
R. Sale > 19-01-2025, 01:47 AM
The woman with the cane and the rosary is not the fourth age in Laufenberg. That is the woman with two canes at the bottom of the page. She seems to be missing from this discussion. Then there's the doctor, and then the four humors.
While there are clearly some good connections here, how much can we expect? Laufenberg's zodiac starts with Aries as was the standard, and the VMs artist couldn't even manage to stick with that. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 19-01-2025, 07:31 AM
(19-01-2025, 01:47 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The woman with the cane and the rosary is not the fourth age in Laufenberg.
The rosary-woman illustrates the fourth season (Winter) in Berlin and Augsburg. She illustrates the third season (Autumn) in Karlsruhe. As I show You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it seems reasonable to assume that details that appear in two different independent sources derive from the original, but of course we don't know for sure. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 19-01-2025, 09:14 AM
The inscription above Zurich's Choleric scholar (in der zit var) led me to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., containing two papers about Laufenberg's Regimen:
Bernhard Schnell: Heinrich Laufenbergs 'Regimen'
Marlis Stähli: Die Handschrift Ms. C 102 b der Zentralbibliothek Zürich
I have only examined the passages about Zurich's Choleric, but I noticed other interesting parts. E.g. at p.33 there are images of the different watermarks found in the manuscripts.
The meaning of the short inscription is still partially unclear to me (something like "in the time ...?" I don't know about "var").
Machine translation of some passages by Stähli:
Quote:The author sits in his writing room, on a stool with a cushion, holding a quill in his right hand and a knife in his left. Above the writing desk is a scroll with the inscription "In der zit var". The scholar's room is separated by a curtain. Behind the author is a chest, perhaps for storing books. On the shelf above the desk with the writing table is a book, next to it several bottles and containers, which indicate the presence of a physician.
The author’s depiction [... illustrates] verses 2190–2194, which characterize the choleric as a scholar.
The five lines mentioned by Stähli:
Laufenberg Wrote:Vnd sindt subtyle uff lere
By wyben hant sü fröide
Vnd vallend licht in leyde
Witze vnd ouch vil kündikeit
Ist vns dike von In geseit
Edited machine translation:
[The Cholerics] are subtle in their learning.
With women they have joy
And easily fall into sorrow.
Wisdom and also much cleverness
Are often told to us by them. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Aga Tentakulus > 19-01-2025, 09:54 AM
‘var’ stands for “was” in the sense of right. (truth).
Or, the past tense of ‘is’. ‘Once upon a time’.
I think the ‘t’ is missing. ‘was’. And it was light.
"var" steht für "war" in sinne von richtig. (Wahrheit).
Oder, die Vergangenheitsform von "ist". "Es war einmal".
Ich denke es fehlt das "t". "wart". Und es wart Licht.
"In der Zeit wird" -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 19-01-2025, 11:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a list of sources that is more accessible than Menge (I don't have to go through OCR).
It confirms that the Budapest ms is not illustrated.
It mentions a later illustrated source, which I had previously missed in Menge:
Quote:Zürich: Hans Rüegger 1508; 4° (Druck z) Weller 439; mit 58 Holzschnitten von Urs Graf. Dieser Zürcher Kalender stellt nach Menge ―eine recht eigenwillige Bearbeitung verschiedener Quellen dar (S. 99). Der Redaktor hat vor allem Textstücke aus dem gesamten 'Regimen‘ und dem 'Iatromathematischen Corpus‘ eingearbeitet. Nach Menge ist dabei ein ―recht kunterbuntes Durcheinander entstanden (S. 101). Lit.: Menge (1976), S. 97-102.
Machine translation:
Zurich: Hans Rüegger 1508; 4° (Print z)
Weller 439; with 58 woodcuts by Urs Graf.
This Zurich calendar presents, according to Menge, "a rather idiosyncratic adaptation of various sources" (p. 99). The editor primarily incorporated text excerpts from the entire 'Regimen' and the 'Iatromathematical Corpus'. According to Menge, this resulted in a "rather colorful mishmash" (p. 101). Lit.: Menge (1976), pp. 97-102.
I don't think the 1509 printed calendar has illustrations for the four ages / seasons.
I does have illustrations of the humours. First You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. conflating the humours and the elements. The four men appear to be of different ages, but I am not sure this is significant.
Then four engravings, each with a woman and a man, with landscapes representing the four elements (no scholars).
After the humours, there is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with a book. The image is mirrored with respect to Berlin; I first thought that, since it is an engraving, this is understandable (though Augsburg's engravings are consistent with the orientation of manuscript illustrations). But the man is standing, and the way he holds the container from its neck is close to Karlsruhe.
The title above the illustration matches You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Vog gott han ich dei kunst gelert
Durch mich wirt mening mensch er nert
From God, I have learned the art,
Through me, many people are healed.
The text from the banner is missing from Karlsruhe. I guess this could mean that the 1508 illustration comes from a lost source that had a K-like physician and B-like banners?
There's a pregnant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the beginning of the chapter about children and childbirth.
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RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
Koen G > 19-01-2025, 12:54 PM
(19-01-2025, 09:54 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."In der Zeit wird"
I agree, it must be a phrase that starts a story or paragraph. Using English closest equivalents, the phrase would be "in that time were". In proper English: "in those days, there was...".
Marco: I always find it fascinating how the same images are maintained over centuries, like a series of pre-posed mannequins that are only updated with the latest fashion trends. This is almost the opposite mindset to the one illustrators have today: they will aim for period-appropriate dress but are expected to produce original imagery.
The representation of the Choleric as a scholar is unusual. I've seen them depicted looking for trouble or even committing domestic violence avant la lettre.
One possible explanation is that Laufenberg says a lot about each of the four, also about their intellectual performance. When going by the text alone, a solitary figure with a book might be seen to illustrate various temperaments, allowing the scholar figure to float through the temperaments in various MSS of the tradition.
I'm not sure if any of that is true. What does appear to be the case, and relevant for us, is that an image of a pointing scholar was likely found in close proximity to the other three. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 21-01-2025, 08:27 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has an article by Bernhard Schnell with a list of copies of Laufenberg's Regimen. The list is based on Menge but with a few changes and updates. In particular, the earliest surviving manuscript is considered to be Karlsruhe (dated to 1455 ca), rather than Zurich (which, after Welker, is now dated 1475 ca).
The Zurich illustration with the misleading MCCCCL date:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
DeepL translation of a couple of passages. Schnell's observations on the area of provenance are also interesting:
Quote:H. H. Menge initially referred to the Zurich manuscript as the earliest witness on the basis of the illustration on the verso of p. 120, which shows a child being led into a house for writing lessons, which bears the date 1450. However, this was no longer upheld by Welker, who dated the manuscript to around 1475. The year 1450 may go back to the model that was used for the Zurich copy, but perhaps also to a real house that the illustrator took as a model and above whose door this date was engraved.
...
WELKER, Lorenz. Heinrich Laufenberg in Zofingen. Musik in der spätmittelalterlichen Schweiz. In: Jahrbuch für Musikwissenschaft N. F. 11 (1991), S. 67-77.
...
The geographical distribution of the manuscript tradition of the full manuscripts of the 'Regimen' is limited to a relatively small area: all manuscripts originate from the Alemannic language area. The center of the tradition was probably the Zofingen - Aargau area (today's Canton Aargau), the Upper Rhine and Alsace with the cities of Basel, Freiburg and Strasbourg. The temporal distribution is just as constant. Without exception, the manuscripts were written in the second half of the 15th century. The example of the Budapest manuscript shows that the text had lost none of its relevance even in the first half of the 16th century. The oldest surviving manuscript is the Karlsruhe Codex. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
ReneZ > 21-01-2025, 08:55 AM
The region of provenance is certainly interesting. Aarau, Basel and Freiburg are relatively near each other, but Strassbourg is quite a bit further away.
Lake Konstanz, which has been in the focus for several reasons, is also not far.
On the other hand I am not aware of any candidate swallow-tail buildings nearby, but there are a couple of good reasons why that does not have to be a problem. Knowing a few would still be interesting of course.
(The example in Val Müstair proposed by Jessica L. Scott is at the other end of Switzerland, and not at all near). -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
MarcoP > 21-01-2025, 09:28 AM
I agree, Rene. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where Koen is collecting merlons does not go anything near. That's very interesting. There's an outlier manuscript from Augsburg, maybe there are more we haven't found yet, but who knows?
If I understand correctly, the places you mention are connected with Laufenberg's bio: he was born in Freiburg, lived near Aarau, spent his last years in Strasbourg (where his autographs were kept and burned in 1870).
I would like to also have a map for the Crossbow Sagittarii. We collectively examined several hundred zodiac cycles and we have found about 20 examples from the 15th Century, from a limited German speaking region, though wider than the Regimen's area. The fact that one of them is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems significant to me. -
RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2
ReneZ > 21-01-2025, 10:49 AM
The other thing that took me a bit of time to check is my 'favourite' MS with the handwriting similar to the top of f116v.
This is MS Pal.Germ. 647. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says:
Quote:nördliches Oberrheingebiet (Lokalisierung nach der Schreibsprache)
I interpret "Oberrhein" as the part of the Rhine that is close to its source, which is the border between Switzerland and Southern Germany. This is similar to the area given by Welker that you quoted, but it should be north of that.
That could include Strassbourg - Freiburg, I suppose, however: it does not says that the language of Pal.Germ. 647 is Alemannisch.
I have a note saying 'Südrheinfränkisch' which I must have taken from one of the Heidelberg library resources.
This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. gives the geographical distribution, which may be the modern one (?)