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Ruby's Greek Thread
- Ruby's Greek Thread
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RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Ruby Novacna > 15-08-2026, 04:00 PM
(15-08-2026, 11:44 AM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You suggest you see a similarity between the Voynichese word represented by keerodal/muro8ai in EVA and the Greek μυρωδία, and I'm just trying to understand what that similarity actually is. The only genuine similarity I can see is that muro8ai and μυρωδία have the same number of letters, but I assume you can see more than that - and I'd really just like to know what it is you see here?
I'd earlier suspected that you might be seeing a match between the m and u at the start of muro8ai with the mu and upsilon at the start of μυρωδία, which is why I made my comment on phonetics - as EVA m and u are purely arbitrary code choices and do not imply that the real Voynichese letters are in any way similar to m and u. (And I'm not suggesting you made that mistake, but plenty of others have - including someone here recently who said they'd compared the sound of Voynichese with modern languages, and even an academic a few years ago who claimed he'd worked out how to sing it
)
PS: I just want to emphasise that I'm asking you this simply to try to understand how your Greek theory works and how you made the connection, not to suggest you're doing anything wrong by making suggestions.
If you followed the link I included in my message to my first attempt at reading the word "keerodal," you might understand my reasoning.
I do indeed consider that "k EVA" transcribes ν or μ, and "ee EVA" corresponds to υ, ει, ι, or perhaps οι or η.
This isn't a mistake; it's my choice, which may evolve and isn't rigid or definitive.
To avoid confusing myself, I've published my current interpretations on my blog.
As for your opinion that the letters in the EVA transcription cannot have phonetic values, I don't share it.
Just because these values aren't known with sufficient certainty doesn't mean they don't exist.
If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to make your own. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Oscroft > 15-08-2026, 09:19 PM
(15-08-2026, 04:00 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As for your opinion that the letters in the EVA transcription cannot have phonetic values, I don't share it.
Just because these values aren't known with sufficient certainty doesn't mean they don't exist.
If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to make your own.
OK, I really do think you've misunderstood what EVA is and what it means. I don't claim full expertise or authority, or anything like that. So what I'm talking about here is my own understanding of EVA - and I hope others might tell us if they think I have it right (and correct me if I'm wrong). But if I am right, then you're making a fundamental mistake.
It's not that that the phonetic values of EVA aren't sufficiently known - it's that it has none, by design. The EVA letters are arbitrary, and specifically do not have any intended phonetic values. EVA was developed as a way to communicate Voynichese through computer communications and using computer analysis - because computer-based code does not include Voynichese letters, which is why we can't even type Voynichese directly. So EVA is, in effect, a single substitution cypher with the sole purpose of representing Voynichese using computer-readable symbols.
EVA is not an attempt at a sound-alike alphabet. For example, an "m" in EVA does not mean the corresponding Voynichese letter is an "m" in any sense, and it is not intended to convey any association with any real-world "m" (or "mu" or anything similar). The developers of EVA could have chosen "z", "t", "%", or anything else to represent the same Voynichese letter - and any of those would fulfil the EVA purpose equally well. So comparing EVA cyphertext directly with real-world plaintext can not reveal anything useful.
I'll try to explain it further with a few examples - I have some thoughts, and just need time to work them out. So please bear with me while I do that. And, please don't see my comments as in any way meant to put down your efforts or anything - I'm just trying to help by giving honest feedback, which I'd hope should be welcomed.
(15-08-2026, 12:34 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you, in fact, making transliterated comparisons between EVA letters and Greek letters?
PS: I'll take that as a Yes. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
ololololo > 15-08-2026, 09:30 PM
(15-08-2026, 09:19 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It’s much simpler — the letters EVA are named so because of their similarity to Latin letters.(15-08-2026, 04:00 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As for your opinion that the letters in the EVA transcription cannot have phonetic values, I don't share it.
Just because these values aren't known with sufficient certainty doesn't mean they don't exist.
If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to make your own.
OK, I really do think you've misunderstood what EVA is and what it means. I don't claim full expertise or authority, or anything like that. So what I'm talking about here is my own understanding of EVA - and I hope others might tell us if they think I have it right (and correct me if I'm wrong). But if I am right, then you're making a fundamental mistake.
It's not that that the phonetic values of EVA aren't sufficiently known - it's that it has none, by design. The EVA letters are arbitrary, and specifically do not have any intended phonetic values. EVA was developed as a way to communicate Voynichese through computer communications and using computer analysis - because computer-based code does not include Voynichese letters, which is why we can't even type Voynichese directly. So EVA is, in effect, a single substitution cypher with the sole purpose of representing Voynichese using computer-readable symbols.
EVA is not an attempt at a sound-alike alphabet. For example, an "m" in EVA does not mean the corresponding Voynichese letter is an "m" in any sense, and it is not intended to convey any association with any real-world "m" (or "mu" or anything similar). The developers of EVA could have chosen "z", "t", "%", or anything else to represent the same Voynichese letter - and any of those would fulfil the EVA purpose equally well. So comparing EVA cybertext directly with real-world plaintext can not reveal anything useful.
I'll try to explain it further with a few examples - I have some thoughts, and just need time to work them out. So please bear with me while I do that. And, please don't see my comments as in any way meant to put down your efforts or anything - I'm just trying to help by giving honest feedback, which I'd hope should be welcomed.
s is a rotated s.
a is similar to a.
r is similar to r.
b is similar to b.
i is similar to i.
But no more than that. The similarity between b and b doesn’t tell us anything at all, since b is the final e with an upward curl. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
ololololo > 15-08-2026, 09:36 PM
I would still like to see more precision and variety in your analysis
Please take a look at these two remarkable manuscripts in Greek: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The second example is more interesting, as it contains many letters with upper diacritical marks. Perhaps you will be able to match some of them with gallows.
P.S. Well, or you could tell me what the similarities are between Voynichese and Greek writing... -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Ruby Novacna > 15-08-2026, 10:24 PM
(15-08-2026, 09:19 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And, please don't see my comments as in any way meant to put down your efforts or anything - I'm just trying to help by giving honest feedback, which I'd hope should be welcomed.
Don't worry, you won't be able to discourage me.
If you want to explain to me what EVA is and what it isn't, go ahead, I have plenty of free time. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Ruby Novacna > 15-08-2026, 10:42 PM
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RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Oscroft > 16-08-2026, 09:39 AM
(15-08-2026, 10:24 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Don't worry, you won't be able to discourage me.
If you want to explain to me what EVA is and what it isn't, go ahead, I have plenty of free time.
That's great, I'd never want to discourage a Voynich researcher - the world needs as many working on it as possible. In that I only want to encourage you - and critique is a constructive part of any process of advancing knowledge. I've read some of your blog entries where you offer proposed Greek translations of Voynich words, and it looks to me like you're employing a variety of different kinds of matches - which has to be good thing.
To expand on the partial explanation of EVA that I've already offered, I think René Zandbergen's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. site is essential reading. In particular, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. explains not just what EVA is, but how the whole family of transliteration alphabets came about historically and their nature and purpose. To save reading the whole thing, I think the opening "Purpose and terminology" paragraph explains the core of how these transliteration approaches work. In particular...
"A transliteration should be clearly distinguished from a proposed translation of the text. The only purpose of a transliteration is to represent each handwritten character in the MS by a symbol in a computer-readable file in a consistent manner. It doesn't really matter which symbol is used for which character." (My emphasis)
That last sentence means the various transliteration alphabets, including EVA, contain no phonetic meaning. So any attempted use of phonetics, even partially, to link EVA with any real-world language is meaningless - which suggests a focus on other similarities/matches is needed.
As I suggested earlier, EVA (along with the the other transliteration methods described) is a single substitution cipher. Look at the tables presented on that voynich.nu page - they could be textbook examples of single substitution ciphers. It means Voynich researchers need to understand that with EVA (and other transliteration alphabets) they're dealing with a ciphertext, which means any apparent phonetic match with a target plaintext can only be a false positive.
I've thought of an experimental example that might help illustrate this. But I have a habit of getting rather wordy (which you will surely have noticed!) So I'll present that in a different post - though it might take me a while, as I have only limited free time. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Oscroft > 16-08-2026, 09:54 AM
(15-08-2026, 04:00 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to make your own
PS: I hope you don't mind if I suggest a potentially more productive way to respond to critique than that...
"If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to explain in detail and I'll be happy to discuss in detail" ?
The implication that someone shouldn't critique your suggestions unless they make better ones themselves or can offer superior expertise (which seems like a theme in your responses) is fallacious. -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Oscroft > 16-08-2026, 11:14 AM
(16-08-2026, 09:39 AM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've thought of an experimental example that might help illustrate this. But I have a habit of getting rather wordy (which you will surely have noticed!) So I'll present that in a different post - though it might take me a while, as I have only limited free time.
OK, here it is (and I realise there might be faults in it, and would welcome critique)...
I found a word in a language that I can't enter on my keyboard, so I used a single substitution cipher (exactly what EVA is) to render it into the Roman alphabet.
The result is "psyoermos".
Can you see any direct phonetic matches with any other language? Can you see any matches with any Greek word? Can you offer any suggestions what it might be using your usual Greek matching approaches? If you can, can you explain the reasoning you use?
(There are decryption techniques using online technology that can decrypt this - I tried, and while it wasn't immediate, I did it in a reasonable amount of time. So I'd please ask folks not to post the results of using such techniques. I really want to give Ruby the chance to use their own approach, it they're up to it, and I do actually think it might be possible.) -
RE: Ruby's Greek Thread
Ruby Novacna > 16-08-2026, 11:25 AM
(16-08-2026, 09:54 AM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(15-08-2026, 04:00 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to make your own
PS: I hope you don't mind if I suggest a potentially more productive way to respond to critique than that...
"If you find my suggestions insufficiently substantiated, you are welcome to explain in detail and I'll be happy to discuss in detail" ?
The implication that someone shouldn't critique your suggestions unless they make better ones themselves or can offer superior expertise (which seems like a theme in your responses) is fallacious.
It's alright, those are just words. Even if you don't claim to offer superior expertise, let's go ahead and discuss it in detail!