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• No text, but a visual code

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Jorge_Stolfi > 14-08-2026, 04:51 AM

  (13-08-2026, 04:43 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You say that on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is a space at the bottom for heating fire (a hypocaust), but the fire seems to exist only in your imagination.

  I admit, I have an overactive imagination. For example, on that page I believe that the nymphs have feet, but these exist only in my own imagination.
  
  Seriously, that page does not depict a pool dug into the ground, but a large tub made of masonry or similar that is sitting on the ground.  There is even a narrow baseboard or stepping ledge all around the base.  On the wall of that big tub there is a row of openings with straight sill and arched top, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  What could those openings be, if not for lighting fire under the tub?  Glass windows for watching the underwater parts of the bathers?
  
  

  Quote:You say that the nymphs on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are enjoying shower-like streams, and I am struck by the fact that there are ten thin streams of water above the heads of the ten female figures. A marvelous structure designed to ensure not a single drop of water falls anywhere else!

  
  Of course I saw that those were single streams of water, not showers.  I called them "showers" because of their apparent function, not the specific form.  That is what I believe a medieval "shower bath" would be like.  According to The Net, the shower-head with many small holes was invented only in the early 1800s. 
  
  The point is that the figure seems to depict a stream of water from a spring (at the top of the page) being collected in a broad tank or pool, from which 10 individual small streams pour out and fall onto 10 naked women that are thigh-deep in another pool of water.  
  
  I admit that I could not find any image of a multiple-shower bath-house in medieval manuscripts, including the Balneis, but I haven't looked at many of them.   But, anyway, what else could that scene be, if not a scene from a spa or public bath? Would you agree that it takes a very fertile imagination (or a strong conviction that the images have a second hidden meaning) to see anything else in that image?
  
  

  Quote:As for f79r, I assume you’ve noticed that there are female figures on the blue, not inside it. Perhaps you could explain this. You say that the "water slide" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to illustrations of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of De Balneis, but I don't see any resemblance whatsoever.

  
  Here we come again to the question of whether the colors are original.   Again, there is no evidence supporting that claim, and there are several bits of evidence that seem to indicate that it is false. 
  
  If, as I believe, that assumption is false, meaning that the colors were applied by a later owner -- then any deductions and hypotheses that depend on that assumption are bogus and irrelevant.  
  
  So, in particular, in my view the nymphs in the left margin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (except the one at the bottom left corner) are neither standing "in" the blue water nor "on" the blue water.   Because originally there was no blue water  in those "funnels".  There was water flowing through them, but it did not pool inside them.   
  
  Thus those nymphs are not bathing.  They are just standing on the "funnels", or floating in air near them, apparently as representations of something. Or maybe just as totally superfluous decoration -- like those clouds with faces blowing wind in random directions that one sees on some medieval maps.
  
  And the assumption that the colors are original often prevents people from seeing the real patterns and connections in the drawings.  In the case of f75r, the green color led many people (including me) to interpret the long narrow "channel" above the "pool" as a water stream or water slide.  But if you take away the color from that figure, what we see in that "channel"  is just a row of five naked women:  

  • The first one at the top has the whole left leg visible  down to the knee, and the rest is hidden behind the next nymph. 
    
  • The second nymph has the whole right leg and foot visible, and the left leg hidden behind the next nymph.
    
  • The third nymph has both legs hidden behind the next nymph.
    
  • The fourth nymph is holding a staff or pole. Her legs are hidden behind the next nymph.
    

  Only the fifth woman at the bottom,already in the pool, seems to be waist-deep in the water.  And of course the sixth nymph below her definitely looks like she is floating in the pool.
  
  Thus, if you take away the color, there is no clue that there is any water in the "channel".  Then one can see it instead as a narrow descending dry passage that leads to the pool, and the first four nymphs are just walking down through it.
  
  Just like the images and verbal description of the Colma pool in the Balneis...
  
  Besides "paints are original", there are a couple other assumptions that everybody makes when analyzing the images, assumptions which I believe are false and thus invalidate many of their conclusions.  But it would be futile to discuss them here...
  
  

  Quote:there are ways of viewing Quire 13 other than the conventional ones—which have led nowhere.

  
  And I agree that the "balneological" view is either a cover for the true meaning of the figures, or the result of the Scribe having no idea of what he was drawing and/or having decided on his own to provide the "bathing nymphs" as pointless decoration. 
  
  The "anatomy" interpretation seems to explain the many figures for which the "balneological" explanation does not work, and may explain why the "balneological" appearance was provided as a cover. 
  
  These interpretations have not lead much further, but at least they fit within the genre of books produced at the time, and with the presumed topic of the Herbal and Pharma sections -- namely, medicine.  Whereas the interpretation of the nymphs as "souls of plants" would be quite out of ordinary for the times -- and would not lead anywhere either...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 14-08-2026, 08:54 AM

  On the wall of that big tub there is a row of openings with straight sill and arched top, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
     This idea amuses me a lot. It turns out that the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. get to have hot water in their pools, but the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f81v—who are in similar pools—have been punished by being denied hot water.
  
     That row of arches in the pool on folio 78v is merely a Gothic decorative feature that was in vogue in the early 15th century. Architectural motifs from churches were applied to small objects, as in this instance. Thus, the decoration of the basin creates the impression of a piece of goldsmith's work or ornamental architecture. It is the same thing we see in a well-known illustration from Christine de Pizan's Le Chemin de long estude. The nine naked Muses are inside the Fountain of Wisdom, which features a row of blind arches—much like those on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the Voynich.
  
     As for the idea that the Voynich's colors aren't original, or that the female figures are merely decorative... it all sounds to me like: "If something gets in the way of my theory, I'll just dismiss it, and the problem is solved".
  
  
  
     

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 14-08-2026, 11:35 AM

  (14-08-2026, 08:54 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
  This idea amuses me a lot. It turns out that the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. get to have hot water in their pools, but the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f81v—who are in similar pools—have been punished by being denied hot water.
  
     That row of arches in the pool on folio 78v is merely a Gothic decorative feature that was in vogue in the early 15th century. Architectural motifs from churches were applied to small objects, as in this instance.[..]

  
  This passage amuses me also - a bit, not a lot.
  
  You have been taking much effort to declare the "bathing" scenes to something like a cosmic, galactic flow of stars.
  
  But here, you remark very exactly the noticed (architectural) structures of basin in f 78v drawing.
  
  Yes, there is a remarkable difference between all "baths":
  - some are clearly constructed, with a rim or a border, like those basins in 78r, 78v, 81r etc.
  - others look like having more natural, irregular boundaries, just as ponds or other water bodies, f.ex. in 82r, 79v
  - number of "nymphs" (not muses) is variating across all baths
  
  If your symbolism of some "heavenly flow" or "galactic fluent stars" was anyhow right:
  - why are the drawings clearly differentiating between quite earthly construction details and natural shores?
  - why are there even any kinds of pools necessary for this representation (of your theory)? -- some simple flows of colour and figures which not need to end in pools would have been enough and better for such purpose.
  
  Yes, I also see some kind of humour in medieval manuscripts; 
  but here, there is just a bunch of women taking baths under strange and unknown conditions. Try WYSIWYG.
  
  Would be more promising to find european cultures with bathing customs or rituals that may have allowed the VMS representation - even with a bit of humour.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 14-08-2026, 06:11 PM

  Stefan, it’s been a long time since you wrote to me. I appreciate you doing so now without thinking I’ve lost my mind.
  
     What I have always striven for is coherence. The female figures in Quire 13 are the same as those in the zodiac, and they are holding stars. And, as you know, there are many stars drawn in the codex, so it seems logical to me to think that those female zodiac figures represent the stars or the degrees of each zodiac sign. Some of these figures are inside tubes; they are not bathing in barrels, because there are figures that are clothed.
  
     Regarding Quire 13, the fact that there is a debate over whether it is a balneological or biological section indicates that the meaning of those images is not actually known. There are basically two types of scenes here: one featuring the female figures in pools or ponds, and another—which I find more revealing—in which we see the figures with their feet inside tubes. And not just their feet, for many of them also have their hands inside tubes. To me, this represents them traveling through those tubes, because I conceive of the figures as an embodiment of astral influence. Look at the bottom left of f80v: there is a figure that appears to have just emerged from the tube and is falling into the pond below.
  
      You’re right to ask about the significance of the pools and ponds. I think the aim is simply to convey the idea of an unceasing current. Just look at how the figures are aligned; they seem to be filing past one after another. It isn't an image of people enjoying themselves in the water. I believe it metaphorically represents a continuous astral influence on Earth. And the scenes capture medieval humor very well.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 14-08-2026, 10:33 PM

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]I appreciate you doing so now without thinking I’ve lost my mind.

  
  Wouldn't say these were my exact words or thoughts;
  as far as I remember, you were and are very convinced of Panofsky, while he seemed not to be such convinced about his own ideas to VMS. 
  
  

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..] The female figures in Quire 13 are the same as those in the zodiac, and they are holding stars. And, as you know, there are many stars drawn in the codex[..]
  Some of these figures are inside tubes; they are not bathing in barrels, because there are figures that are clothed.

  
  Yes and no.
  There is a difference between tubes and tubs/"barrels". Some few of these barrels are capsized (like the whole inner ring of pisces/mars zodiac). They are clearly elaborated as vessels with a closed bottom, so I would recognize them as tubs or, just barrels. Not tubes.
  That's what I get when I see it, with nearly no interpretation necessary here.
  
  Yes, they are clothed: but in many cultures bathing with full gear of clothing is normal in public bathing, not being in full nudity.
  Yes, the few clothed ladies are very different and interesting among all those nymphs, and they are very rarely discussed: I cannot do that here, but they are quite outstanding.
  But no, full cloth does not exclude the option of "just bathing".
  Even more, several churches were and are doing adult baptisms with (short) full drowning of fully clothed people.
  So no, that is also no proof for "no water, no bathing, no baptizing".
  
  But I would agree that all those zodiac ladies are standing, sitting or squatting dry in that tubs; just for the reason that some of the barrels are lying on a side -- enhancing such emptiness to all barrels is a conclusion or, let's say, an interpretation, but it should be one with a quite acceptable logic.
  
  

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]and another—which I find more revealing—in which we see the figures with their feet inside tubes. And not just their feet, for many of them also have their hands inside tubes. To me, this represents them traveling through those tubes, because I conceive of the figures as an embodiment of astral influence.

  
  You will understand that the conclusion/interpretation of hidden hands and feet as "tube travelling" seems not to follow any acceptable logic in my way of viewing this.
  
  I remarked at an earlier occasion that drawings of hands and feet are non-trivial, as they are time-consuming and rather difficult to draw -- everybody can immediately recognize unnatural imagery or anatomically impossible sketches.
  So the artist had 500+ figures and a problem with 2,000+ details = I think he was just cutting corners by chosing motives with many "hidden" parts.
  
  

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Look at the bottom left of f80v: there is a figure that appears to have just emerged from the tube and is falling into the pond below.

  
  I don't get which one you mean here.
  This detail?
  
  
  
  Appears like Lady A is simply showering, Lady B is a by-stander,
  Lady C is chilling and really enjoying herself in the water.
  
  What do you see or mean there?
  
  

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look at how the figures are aligned; they seem to be filing past one after another. It isn't an image of people enjoying themselves in the water.

  
  I do.
  To me, they look more like a polonaise, some ritual dance or even just something like modern water-treading. Would not be such fun at least in the last two cases.
  
  

  (14-08-2026, 06:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I believe it metaphorically represents a continuous astral influence on Earth. And the scenes capture medieval humor very well.

  
  At all, they could more likely be a rural hen party in a waterbound medieval culture than some astral metaphor.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Jorge_Stolfi > 14-08-2026, 11:38 PM

  (14-08-2026, 08:54 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Quote:On the wall of that big tub there is a row of openings with straight sill and arched top, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

  
  This idea amuses me a lot. It turns out that the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. get to have hot water in their pools, but the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f81v—who are in similar pools—have been punished by being denied hot water.

  
  Are you aware that the tub of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is connected to the two tubs of f81r, so that water flows from the former to the latter?  (Those two pages comprise a single illustration, and thus must originally have been at the center of a quire. That is a well-known piece of evidence that the bifolios were scrambled when the book was bound.)
  
  So the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are getting hot water, like those of f78v, although second-hand.  Presumably that was the "economy class" section of the spa.
  
  More generally, the Balneis is a description of the various spas and hot water springs in the region between Naples and Baia, known as the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or "Fields of Fire".  The whole region is a giant volcanic caldera formed tens of thousand of years ago, connected to Mount Vesuvius. Most of the roundish landforms seen in that image are volcanic craters (geologist count 24 of them) within the caldera, created by large eruptions in past. In the Middle Ages there were many mineral springs in the region, many of which were exploited as spas. The springs and spas were widely varied in nature and alleged "specialty", from helping to pass kidney and bladder stones to restoring libido. There was even one specializing in priests and the conditions that came from their sedentary lives.  
  
  So there were probably springs that were naturally hot, others that were naturally warm, others that needed an artificial fiery boost to be competitive.  The one that is proposed as the "inspiration" for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. had a tunnel with a ramp or staircase leading to a pool that apparently was connected with the sea and therefore could be used only during the low tide.
  
  Most of the spas described in the Balneis were apparently destroyed by earthquakes in the late 1400s and by the eruption in 1538 that created a new volcano, Monte Nuovo.  In recent years there have been hundreds of earthquakes in the area and significant ground up-and-down motion, that may be preambles to a new large eruption. 
  
  

  Quote:That row of arches in the pool on folio 78v is merely a Gothic decorative feature that was in vogue in the early 15th century. Architectural motifs from churches were applied to small objects, as in this instance. Thus, the decoration of the basin creates the impression of a piece of goldsmith's work or ornamental architecture.

  
  Wait, so you are saying that some details of the figures are meaningless decoration?
  
  

  Quote:As for the idea that the Voynich's colors aren't original [...] it all sounds to me like: "If something gets in the way of my theory, I'll just dismiss it, and the problem is solved".

  
  None of "my theories" depend on the colors being original or not original.  
  
  The Late Painting theory says that the same person wrote the text and drew the figure outlines, with the same pen and ink; whereas the color paints were applied by someone else, without input or supervision by the Author -- often misinterpreting the original drawings and/or covering details of them.  This theory is not mine, and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..  
  
  If the colors turned out to be original, that would not invalidate any of my theories.  But it would require many explanations for all the bizarre color choices.  Like the alternating red and green leaves of f3r, f11v, and many other Herbal plants, the red and white leaves of f16v, the red calyx and alternating blue-green and white petals of f40v, the alternating blue and green leaves of f44r, the blue calyxes of f46v, the alternating white and red petals of f51r, ..., the blue rays of the Moon on f68r2, ..., the pink bull of Taurus 1, the green crayfish of Cancer, the blue-spotted lion of Leo, the green stars of Libra, the blue-green dragon of Scorpio, ..., the green rainbows of f82v, ...
  
  The Late Painting theory would be a single and simple explanation for all those bizarre colors.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 15-08-2026, 09:21 AM

  Stefan, The tubes in the inner circle of Pisces, from which the female figures emerge, are the same tubes found on folio f78r, featuring the same rows of dots. On that folio, the fluid flows through those tubes. They are not barrels.
  
    You have an unconvincing way of explaining why the figures have their hands and feet inside tubes—an iconographic detail of great importance for understanding the metaphorical meaning of Quire 13. 
  
     I’m amused by what you say about the women lined up—who look like they’re marching—actually dancing an exotic dance in the water. It turns out you have more imagination than I do. As for Lady A—as you call her—you say she is showering beneath those pipes suspended in mid-air. I think it is easier to imagine that she has poured down through them, since Lady A is merely the embodiment of a fluid.
  
     Stolfi, you're outdoing yourself. The idea that some girls don't have the right to the spa's hot water because they're in the economy class is truly unbeatable.
  
       You told me a story about the spas in the Naples region that made me feel like I was watching a TV documentary.
  
       You speak about The Late Painting theory in capital letters as if it were dogma. The colors are not used inappropriately. Colors also convey ideas, and the authors of the Voynich used them with full awareness.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Jorge_Stolfi > 16-08-2026, 01:32 AM

  (15-08-2026, 09:21 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stolfi, you're outdoing yourself. The idea that some girls don't have the right to the spa's hot water because they're in the economy class is truly unbeatable.

  
  Why the sarcasm?  
  
  The fact is that pages You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are a single illustration that depicts a large pool on f78v, fed by a narrow channel in the West margin, with two spouts at the bottom that feed the two pools on f81r.  There are multiple naked women bathing in each pool.  
  
  Now, where else would dozens of women bathe at the same time in crowded pools or tubs, if not at a hot water spa?  (Maybe that is a cover or allegory for something else, but in any case "spa" is the first layer or meaning of that figure.)  
  
  Spas with multiple pools of hot water connected in series, artificial or natural, are rather common.  Pamukkale in Turkey and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are famous natural ones.  Water cools gradually as it flows from pool to pool, but will usually be warmer than ambient through the whole chain. So rest assured that the girls on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are getting warm water too.
  
  

  Quote:You speak about The Late Painting theory in capital letters as if it were dogma.

  
  I explicitly called it "theory".  I capitalized "Late Painting" only to indicate that those words were the name which I would use to refer to it later.
  
  

  Quote:The colors are not used inappropriately. Colors also convey ideas, and the authors of the Voynich used them with full awareness.

  
  But this is is only a theory, not a dogma, right?
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 16-08-2026, 11:34 AM

  You keep talking about hot water in spas, even though I’ve shown you that the blind arches on the fountain in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are merely a Gothic decorative feature typical of the era—a time when architectural elements were incorporated into all kinds of objects. It is an ornamental feature like that of the f82r, where we see two arched pipes crossing at a stylized finial identical to those found in Late Gothic architecture.
  
     As an intelligent man, you will have realized the futility of the discussion we are having. I have clear ideas about what the Voynich manuscript is, just as you seem to. And only time will tell.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  ololololo > 16-08-2026, 12:58 PM

  Antonio, it’s better to put aside such arrogance about your own omniscience; you don’t fully understand what Stolfi is telling you.
  I agree with Stolfi in the sense that he accurately describes what we see in the illustration. Indeed, these are two connected bodies of water, and indeed, we see water in them. It’s somewhat similar to Balneis Puteolanum.
  But that doesn’t mean anything. We don’t know what these illustrations signify. We don’t know what the author wanted to say. We don’t know what each detail individually means.
  But I won’t speak for Stolfi; I’ll just ask the same question: how did you understand what these drawings mean? Will I be able to see these details myself during independent study? How subjective are your conclusions? Can you find examples of similar illustrations in other manuscripts (of course, Radimir’s examples are good in their own way, but they depict only women. They don’t depict the pimply lids)?
  And how complete are your conclusions? I mean, are they absolutely logical and compatible with all the details of the VMS illustrations, or only with certain ones? 
  At the moment, it seems to me that it’s the latter, because even if we remember the Rosettes...
     
  In Rosette 1 and 2, I see wolkensband along the edges (sorry if I’m calling it that incorrectly).
  Rosettes 3–6 can at least somewhat be attributed to the cosmic theme. But I don’t see any particularly special astronomical motifs in them.
  Rosetta 7–8 is very difficult to associate with an astronomical theme.
  9-13 are the most ordinary geographical features. 9 and 10 are squares, 11 is a rock/cliff, 12 is a bridge or a cliff (you can see the shore and something that looks like waves at the bottom), 13 is a bridge (you can also see something that looks like waves at the bottom).
  I hope you’ll explain to me what’s so cosmic about this…
  
  I respect your work and everything you’ve done, and I’m in no way denying your experience in working with medieval manuscripts (and you do have it). I’m just making sure you don’t forget that openness to criticism is always important...
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