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No text, but a visual code
- No text, but a visual code
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RE: No text, but a visual code
Antonio García Jiménez > 12-08-2026, 05:06 PM
To say that the water of Quire 13 is green because it was copied from De Balneis Puteolanis strikes me as mere conjecture, entirely without foundation.
There has long been a presumption that De Balneis was a work upon which the authors of the Voynich manuscript drew. While it is certainly impossible to prove this, what can be stated with certainty is that the two works have nothing to do with each other. For this reason, the idea gaining ground in recent years is that Quire 13 deals more with human biology than with balneology. Although all this is pure speculation.
I recently cited the 2011 article by the american scientist couple Lincoln Taiz and Sandra Lee who hypothesized that Quire 13 deals with plant physiology, with the female figures representing the souls of the plants. It was the first time an alternative vision was proposed—a hypothesis that also had the merit of linking all, or nearly all, parts of the Voynich and giving them a unified meaning.
As I believe everyone already knows, I have a different idea regarding Quire 13; nevertheless, it is one that attempts to offer a comprehensive view of the codex—assembling all its sections—and moves away from the encyclopedic concept that seems to prevail. The images in the Voynich convey a single message. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
ololololo > 12-08-2026, 05:29 PM
(12-08-2026, 05:06 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To say that the water of Quire 13 is green because it was copied from De Balneis Puteolanis strikes me as mere conjecture, entirely without foundation.
Why?
Naked women bathing and the green color of the water. This is quite a significant similarity.(12-08-2026, 05:06 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I recently cited the 2011 article by the american scientist couple Lincoln Taiz and Sandra Lee who hypothesized that Quire 13 deals with plant physiology, with the female figures representing the souls of the plants. It was the first time an alternative vision was proposed—a hypothesis that also had the merit of linking all, or nearly all, parts of the Voynich and giving them a unified meaning.
It's also a bias to expect that all topics are somehow interconnected. They don't necessarily have to talk about the same thing. It is quite normal for an herbalist to have a section with astronomy, where the months of planting, treatment, etc. will be indicated; to have a section with anatomy in order to gain better medical knowledge; to have a section with recipes and spells that were an integral part of medieval medicine.
Of course, they may be right, I'm not arguing. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Rafal > 12-08-2026, 05:58 PM
Quote:While it is certainly impossible to prove this, what can be stated with certainty is that the two works have nothing to do with each other.
You have very strong opinions Antonio and at the same moment don't want to accept that they are just as speculative as many opposite ones. Naked women are stars? Prove it, show other works were naked women with fat bellies are stars
An opinion that the Voynich artist was taking loose inspiration from many works - some herbal, some German astronomical book, De Balneis, Taccola, even some religious books is rather mainstream. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Radim Dobeš > 12-08-2026, 07:51 PM
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RE: No text, but a visual code
Rafal > 12-08-2026, 10:10 PM
Quote:I don't know if this will help the discussion at all, but I can cite an example where stars and planets were historically depicted as naked women with bellies (not pregnant ones).
Interesting pictures as often, Radim.
Some points:
1) Your link talks mainly about Venus.
Venus is a planet not a star but in the medieval age this distinction was fuzzy so okay we have one star - Venus depicted as naked woman. I guess we don't have to reach for Islamic sources, we will find female Venus in European books as well.
But it is just one object. Were stars like Fomalhaut, Betelgeuse, Algol, Sirius, Polaris, Aldebaran or Vega ever depicted as women???
2) I am not so sure what your pictures actually show, like that "cat lady" with a tail. Do they really symbolize stars?
3) You freely use Arabic, Persian or Ethiopian pictures whenever they fit you without establishing a firm link between Voynich Manuscript and these cultures first but that's another story
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RE: No text, but a visual code
Jorge_Stolfi > 13-08-2026, 03:10 PM
(12-08-2026, 05:06 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To say that the water of Quire 13 is green because it was copied from De Balneis Puteolanis strikes me as mere conjecture, entirely without foundation.
It is at least a possibility. However, it would require the paints to be contemporaneous with the inked outlines -- which is a conjecture with no supporting evidence, and some evidence to the contrary. Thus I myself do not believe that the colors were copied from anywhere.
Green is a natural color choice for painting ponds. (Like for example that one in Washington, DC
) Hot springs are typically turquoise. Thus painting them royal blue (with ultramarine or azurite) would be just as wrong as painting them green -- and green pigments were cheaper than blue ones. And outdoor ponds with significant, ahem, fertilizer content will turn green from algae.
Quote:what can be stated with certainty is that [the VMS and the De Balneis] have nothing to do with each other.
Why "with certainty"?
If it were only "both have ponds and tubs and naked women", I would agree that it could be just a coincidence. But most of the women in Quire 13 are obviously bathing in some spa or public bath with multiple separate pools/ponds/tubs. The large tub on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a space at the bottom for heating fire (a hypocaust). The nymphs on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are enjoying shower-like streams. The nymph at bottom left of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is supporting herself on a backrest, presumably provided for the infirm or because of slippery bottom.
Moreover, some illustrations in Quire 13 have the same layout as illustrations in some copies of the Balneis. For instance, the "water slide" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to illutrations of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which was an underground cave reached through a narrow steep descending tunnel. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., among others, explored this thesis in more detail.
So it is impossible to deny that the VMS artist meant the readers to see "women bathing in a spa". Then the Balneis is a natural and plausible source for his "inspiration".
But of course there are may images in Quire 13 that do not fit a "balneological" explanation. Thus there are good reasons to suspect that "women bathing" was just a cover for some other information, like anatomy.
Quote:...hypothesized that Quire 13 deals with plant physiology, with the female figures representing the souls of the plants ... a hypothesis that also had the merit of linking all, or nearly all, parts of the Voynich and giving them a unified meaning.
But that hypothesis would leave the Zodiac section standing out, since the nymphs in the latter would no longer represent stars.
It is possible that the VMS had a unified meaning. But many manuscripts of the time are compilations of multiple unrelated books. So "giving the book a unified meaning" is not, by itself, an argument in favor of any hypothesis.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Antonio García Jiménez > 13-08-2026, 04:43 PM
The truth is, I find your iconographic reading of Quire 13 thoroughly entertaining. You say that on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is a space at the bottom for heating fire (a hypocaust), but the fire seems to exist only in your imagination. You say that the nymphs on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are enjoying shower-like streams, and I am struck by the fact that there are ten thin streams of water above the heads of the ten female figures. A marvelous structure designed to ensure not a single drop of water falls anywhere else!
As for f79r, I assume you’ve noticed that there are female figures on the blue, not inside it. Perhaps you could explain this. You say that the "water slide" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to illutrations of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of De Balneis, but I don't see any resemblance whatsoever.
I have cited the American scientist couple and their hypothesis regarding plant physiology and female figures as the soul of plants. I have stated that this is not my theory, but that it reveals there are ways of viewing Quire 13 other than the conventional ones—which have led nowhere.
I am well aware that there are medieval manuscripts that are compilations of unrelated works. I worked at the National Library of Spain, where there are many of them. One thing I learned is to develop a certain sensitivity to medieval humor, humor that is also present in the Voynich. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
Rafal > 13-08-2026, 05:31 PM
Well, there are similaries between Quire 13 and De Balneis. Not perfect but some.
There are even similarieties between Quire 13 and Liber ad Honorem Augusti
f course, Voynich artist probably have never seen that but it came from Petrus De Eboli and it was kind of his style to draw pools of water and streams all across the pages:
Have a look:
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RE: No text, but a visual code
ololololo > 13-08-2026, 08:09 PM
(13-08-2026, 04:43 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You say that the "water slide" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to illutrations of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of De Balneis, but I don't see any resemblance whatsoever.
Antonio, we’re talking about the overall appearance. At the very least, it really does look like a drawing of a lake, and in this elongated style, it sometimes appears in manuscripts.
Similarity does not mean being exactly the same.
(13-08-2026, 04:43 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have stated that this is not my theory, but that it reveals there are ways of viewing Quire 13 other than the conventional ones—which have led nowhere.
Well, the claim is strange.
If interpretations lead nowhere, should we abandon the analysis? Or perhaps take your word for it?
This is not appropriate criticism. Criticism should not be based on “one’s own experience” or “one’s own knowledge,” but should focus on the essence — the contradictions in the theory, inconsistencies, and errors.
In any case, I don’t see any reason to reject this theory outright. In my opinion, it is indeed likely, even though the part about plant souls sounds strange. -
RE: No text, but a visual code
denty > 13-08-2026, 08:47 PM
I agree with Antonio that although I can see the upper somewhat straight sections and the lower bulbous sections in each diagram, I don't really see any other resemblance. In the balneis one there is no water in the straight upper part, the other one, boats are in the water, the people are on the shore, plus there are more water connections there.
I don't think it is a water slide, it just gets deeper from top to bottom.