(15-01-2018, 10:06 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The real joke of the story is that Beinecke 408 probably IS a Latin text, but these brute force - methods with word lists or the statitstics approach of the cryptographers obviously don't work, there must be is another trick behind it all.
There is nothing wrong in building statistics and word lists. The problem is that the statistics are build for a text as repetitive as 'otchor chor chor ytchor'. It should be no surprise if the statistics and word lists describe repetitions too.
Half-update which technically has full paragraph (f36r). Also short verse from You are not allowed to view links.
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Another small update. More detailed description of mapping to sounds added. Few new pieces of text added including the beginning of last paragraph.
Two tests for solutions were mentioned in other thread. I don't find the one of Klaus Schmeh to be very usefull, but the other one (translating most frequent words, mentioned by
ReneZ) is much more interesting.
Here is list of most frequent Voynich words with my basic translations (one Voynich word can match to several words).
daiin -
illī (that), also probably
alī (leaf)
ol -
una (one, also article)
chedy -
cartellus (page),
creātilis (created)
aiin -
iī (this)
shedy -
partellus (part, piece of text)
s -
ex (from)
chol - no good candidate
ar -
eāre (go),
ārea (area, site)
or - no good candidate
but of course
aura (air) and probably
abra (girl).
chey -
cartus (page),
creātus (created),
certus (fixed, determined)
dar -
hilaria (joy)
y - no good candidate
dy -
illus (that)
al -
eam (this),
iam (now, besides)
qokeey -
coadjectus (added)
shey -
partus (part),
apertus (began, opened)
qokeedy -
aequidictellus (words written similarly),
coadjicātilis (added)
dal -
illam (that)
qokedy -
coēdātilis (written, produced)
qokaiin -
coēdī (written),
caudī (endings)
I agree on the usefulness of the test proposed by Rene!
(21-07-2018, 12:38 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.daiin - illī (that), also probably alī (leaf)
You are not allowed to view links.
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"ille" and "illa" (Masculine and Feminine nominative singular) should be at least as frequent. How do you think they appear in the VMS?
(21-07-2018, 12:38 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.shedy - partellus (part, piece of text)
"partellus" is a word I had never heard of. Most of the pages returned by google appear to refer to You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view., a moth described and named at the end of the XIX Century. How many occurrences of "partellus" have you seen in medieval or classical Latin? Since
shedy occurs more than 400 times in the VMS, if you cannot find an actual Latin text with at least 100 occurrences, you could consider picking a different word.
This is a list of words that are more frequent than "illi" (based on a small set of Latin texts):
et 6122
in 3034
est 1473
ad 1238
non 1165
quod 1044
ut 932
quae 907
cum 892
de 741
ex 694
qui 676
si 595
sed 554
quam 460
autem 453
sunt 431
nec 422
a 405
per 403
ac 371
eius 367
etiam 359
aut 351
haec 349
tum 332
esse 315
hoc 307
atque 293
vero 289
quo 286
ab 282
dominus 277
mihi 249
te 248
enim 246
me 243
tamen 238
se 238
sic 236
super 234
terra 223
deus 220
inter 218
eum 217
ubi 215
eo 211
ea 199
sit 196
id 195
hic 194
quoque 192
ait 186
tibi 183
modo 183
his 182
ipse 172
terram 170
iam 164
omnes 162
ille 161
ego 161
filii 160
dixit 159
ei 158
nunc 157
qua 156
quibus 155
nos 154
at 154
sub 148
contra 147
tantum 145
quidem 145
quem 145
pro 144
vires 138
ne 138
nomen 135
vel 134
omnia 134
aqua 130
eam 127
ita 126
eorum 125
quid 124
illa 123
eos 123
primus 122
libro 120
ergo 120
genus 119
inquit 118
nam 117
post 113
vocant 112
erat 112
liber 111
magis 110
cui 110
neque 109
illud 108
omnibus 106
itaque 106
quos 105
ante 105
nobis 103
habet 102
hanc 101
semen 97
cuius 97
omnis 96
illius 94
hac 94
illi 93
(21-07-2018, 02:20 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree on the usefulness of the test proposed by Rene!
(21-07-2018, 12:38 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.daiin - illī (that), also probably alī (leaf)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is Nominative, masculine, plural (and Dative singular)
"ille" and "illa" (Masculine and Feminine nominative singular) should be at least as frequent. How do you think they appear in the VMS?
(21-07-2018, 12:38 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.shedy - partellus (part, piece of text)
"partellus" is a word I had never heard of. Most of the pages returned by google appear to refer to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a moth described and named at the end of the XIX Century. How many occurrences of "partellus" have you seen in medieval or classical Latin? Since shedy occurs more than 400 times in the VMS, if you cannot find an actual Latin text with at least 100 occurrences, you could consider picking a different word.
This is a list of words that are more frequent than "illi" (based on a small set of Latin texts):
et 6122
in 3034
est 1473
ad 1238
non 1165
quod 1044
ut 932
quae 907
cum 892
de 741
ex 694
qui 676
si 595
sed 554
quam 460
autem 453
sunt 431
nec 422
a 405
per 403
ac 371
eius 367
etiam 359
aut 351
haec 349
tum 332
esse 315
hoc 307
atque 293
vero 289
quo 286
ab 282
dominus 277
mihi 249
te 248
enim 246
me 243
tamen 238
se 238
sic 236
super 234
terra 223
deus 220
inter 218
eum 217
ubi 215
eo 211
ea 199
sit 196
id 195
hic 194
quoque 192
ait 186
tibi 183
modo 183
his 182
ipse 172
terram 170
iam 164
omnes 162
ille 161
ego 161
filii 160
dixit 159
ei 158
nunc 157
qua 156
quibus 155
nos 154
at 154
sub 148
contra 147
tantum 145
quidem 145
quem 145
pro 144
vires 138
ne 138
nomen 135
vel 134
omnia 134
aqua 130
eam 127
ita 126
eorum 125
quid 124
illa 123
eos 123
primus 122
libro 120
ergo 120
genus 119
inquit 118
nam 117
post 113
vocant 112
erat 112
liber 111
magis 110
cui 110
neque 109
illud 108
omnibus 106
itaque 106
quos 105
ante 105
nobis 103
habet 102
hanc 101
semen 97
cuius 97
omnis 96
illius 94
hac 94
illi 93
I don't think VMS is written Classical Latin or classical Medieval Latin, and there is no need to kick at open door and compare them directly. Rather VMS is written in some form which mixes traits of Medieval, Vulgar and spoken Latin with artificial endings invented by the author.
Diminutive suffixes were very common that time so
partellus is just a form of
partus. This is word I'm 100% sure of.
Due to simplified gender system and artificial case system I don't think there was
ille, and
illus was probably used instead of
illa. Also this word was used both as article and pronoun.
As for you word list,
est was sometimes omitted, words were sometimes written in nominative, encl.
que can be used instead of
et, and supine instead of
ut+verb, accusative instead of
ad+noun and probably many more... All these specific details can transform this rating dramatically. If we merge all forms of
ille it's already more than 500 and that's top 20. Was
ipse interchangable with
ille? If yes then 700+ and top 10. So matching top entities depicted by words may work. Matching top words doesn't.
PS Testday continues. Small test mentioned by Anton in other thread: oror sheey - breviōr apertitās (shortened beginning)
(21-07-2018, 10:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:farmerjohn: I don't think VMS is written Classical Latin or classical Medieval Latin, and there is no need to kick at open door and compare them directly. Rather VMS is written in some form which mixes traits of Medieval, Vulgar and spoken Latin with artificial endings invented by the author.
In Latin, the endings are everything. They tell you who did what to whom. The endings in Latin are more critical than languages that have small joining words in between to substitute for the endings.
To invent a different system of endings would be difficult, and in the end, they would have to be conceptually similar to real Latin for it to make sense... which means it doesn't matter which "cipher" characters you use to express them, the interpretation would come out the same whether they were real Latin endings or invented "Latinesque" endings.
Which means... either the meaning would be distorted by invented endings (if they do not follow the same conventions as Latin), or it's not Latin.
In short, I think endings of nouns/adjectives were close to original Latin, with Nominative, Accusative and Ablative all present for sure. Verb endings were much simplified. Can you name it «similar», «different», «Latin» is clearly terminological issue, not very interesting to me to be honest
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I’ll call it a duck
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I’ll call it a duck
Incorrect answer. And suddenly it's a drake!
(21-07-2018, 10:24 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think VMS is written Classical Latin or classical Medieval Latin, and there is no need to kick at open door and compare them directly. Rather VMS is written in some form which mixes traits of Medieval, Vulgar and spoken Latin with artificial endings invented by the author.
Thank you farmerjohn, I see your point. You understand your fake-Latin cannot stand a comparison with true Latin or Romance languages. Your only choice is discarding your theory or discarding the evidence of the entire tradition of the Latin language and all its descendants, and you are happy with the second option. A situation well described by Rene You are not allowed to view links.
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Quote:The worst case (also not rare) is when a theory is used to decide which evidence is reliable, and which is not.
A gaping abyss rather than "an open door", in my opinion.
(21-07-2018, 10:24 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I’ll call it a duck
Appropriate enough: once you decide your results cannot be directly compared with actual evidence, you are left with pure
flatus vocis - "quack quack quack", if you prefer.