The Voynich Ninja

In the course of my research on West Slavic languages in the medieval period, I have come across interesting descriptions of the early orthography of Old Polish in the medieval period. A short summary can be found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

The point is that medieval Old Polish spelling appears to have been highly inconsistent and ambiguous:

"c" could represent the phonemes now written as "k", "c", "ć", "cz", or "dz"

"z" could represent the phonemes now written as "z", "ż", "ź", "s", or "ś"

"s" could represent the phonemes now written as "s", "ś", "sz", "z", or "ż"

Thus they wrote "Zeraz" to mean "Sieradz", "faly" to mean "chwali", "rech" to mean "rzecz", and "vmoch" to mean "w moc", to cite just a few examples of medieval Old Polish spelling practices. 

The table below gives many more examples of both the spelling letter values and numerous words as written with these spelling practices.

It would be interesting to analyze the entropy and conditional entropy statistics of such documents as the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that were written with these medieval Old Polish spelling practices. 

Geoffrey

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Here is an example of a possible reading and interpretation of a couple lines of text in the Voynich manuscript, using my Slavic VCI reading and interpretation of the Voynich script, in line with the Old Polish spelling practices described in the first post above.

These are the last two lines of Voynich ms folio page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1. The end of this page attracted my attention because the last line is a 5-vord phrase that the author emphasized by centering it in the middle of the line, rather than simply writing it starting from the left margin as is typical for the last lines of paragraphs in this manuscript and elsewhere. 

EVA transcription:

[ysheedy  ksheey  qokoror  chod  lkchedy  qotody  qokar  shty  otarar]
[sar  chedar  olpchdy  otol  otchedy]

my Slavic VCI reading and interpretation:

<#rzéc#  trzé#  nuw  jdz  sćec#  mg#  nal  rzp#  balal>
<ral  jecal  zbic#  bz  bjec#>

My interpretation of these lines in modern Polish spelling:

"rzekł trzy 'no jedź!', cześć machnął, rzep bolał
rżał jechał zbić bez becz"

English translation:

"he said three 'well, ride!', waved goodbye, the bur hurt
it neighed and he rode to conquer without a cry"

The inconsistencies between the Slavic VCI reading and the modern Polish spelling appear to be rather similar to the inconsistencies between medieval Old Polish spelling practices and modern Polish spelling, as described in my first post above: <c> representing "k", "ć", "cz", or "ch" ; <r> or <rz> representing "rż" or "rz" ; and the voicing inconsistency of <g> representing "ch". 

Geoffrey

I can now present my reading and interpretation of the entire last paragraph (last five lines) of folio page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1 of the Voynich manuscript. 

CAUTION: Readers should be advised in advance that my reading of the first three lines of this paragraph has revealed that this is a rather bawdy medieval Silesian / Old Polish verse (Silesian is a southern dialect of Polish along the Czech border). It contains the obscene language and vocabulary that one would expect in a bawdy verse. Naturally, to present an accurate reading and interpretation of the language and content of the text as I have analyzed it, it is necessary to include the obscene Silesian / Polish words and their most accurate colloquial English translations that preserve the spirit of the original text as I read and interpret it, without censoring the text or using euphemistic or neutral scientific biological translations of the words that do not convey the real idiomatic sense and meaning of the original. I hope that readers and members of this forum understand that the interpretation I present below is my honest best reading of the ms text according to my West Slavic theory of the script, and not by any means an attempt to produce an obscene interpretation of the text for its own sake. 

EVA transcription:

[podaiin  shdar  ypchdar  dar  ypchdy  qopol  dar  keshor  dchdal  cholairy]
[ytor  chol  shdytody  qotchdy  otchol  chees  ar  eeodaiin  or  aral  alkam]
[raraiiin  shey  osaiin  otar  ytar  otedy  or  aiin  otar  alar  olkeedy] 
[ysheedy  ksheey  qokoror  chod  lkchedy  qotody  qokar  shty  otarar]
[sar  chedar  olpchdy  otol  otchedy]

my Slavic VCI reading and interpretation:

<Pdzo  rzcal  #Pical  cal  #Pic#  Mz  cal  terzw  cicas  izál#>
<#pw  iz  rzc#pdz#  mic#  brz  jér  al  égo  w  alas  astá(s)>
<laló  rze#  chro  bal  #pal  bec#  w  o  bal  asal  zdéc#>
<#rzéc#  trzé#  nuw  jdz  sćec#  mg#  nal  rzp#  balal>
<ral  jecal  zbic#  bz  bjec#>

above text with spelling retained but word breaks re-segmented in line with my interpretation below:

<<  Pdzo  rzcal  ~Pical  cal  ~Pic~  Mz  cal  terzw  cicas  izál~  >>
<<  ~pw  izrzc~  pdz~  mic~  brz  jéral  égo  walas  astás    >>
<<  laló  rze~  chrobal  ~pal  bec~wo  balasal  zdéc~  >>
<<  ~rzéc~  trzé~  nuw  jdz  sćec~  mg~nal  rzp~  balal  >>
<<  ral  jecal  zbic~  bz  bjec~  >>

my Old Polish / Silesian interpretation of these lines in modern Polish spelling:

"pizdą rzucał, pizgał cal pięć, mąż cał trzeźwy chcicą-s jeżdżał
po zrzucił pizdę miecz, bryż dzierżał jego wała-s astą-s
laluś że chorobał upadł, biedactwo! bałuszał dziecko
rzekł trzy 'no jedź!', cześć machnął, rzep bolał
rżał jechał zbić bez becz"

English translation:

"he threw and fucked her cunt five inches, the man completely sober rode with lust
When his sword threw off her cunt, her gorget held his cock like a branch
the dandy, well he got ill and fell, poor thing! a child made noise
he said three 'well, ride!', waved goodbye, the bur hurt
it neighed and he rode to conquer without a cry"

Notes on Old Polish and Silesian dialectal forms in my Polish interpretation above:

"cał" is an Old Polish form for modern Polish "cały", meaning "whole".

"bryż" is an Old Polish word meaning "gorget; embroidery". A gorget is a band of linen wrapped around a woman's neck and head in the medieval period.

"dzierżał" is an Old Polish and Silesian dialectal form for modern Polish "dzierżył", meaning "it held, it wielded".

"astą" is a Silesian dialectal form meaning "like a branch, like a bough". (This is the instrumental singular form of "asta".)

"bałuszał" or "bałuszył" is a Silesian dialectal form meaning "he made noise, he talked a lot". 

It appears to me that there is still more wordplay in this verse that a translation cannot capture. For example, "rzucał" means "he threw", but it is quite similar to the verb "ruchał", which also means "he fucked". In the first line there occur both the word "cal" meaning "inch" and the word "cał" meaning "whole". 

Geoffrey

Geoffrey, it's not your ease of switching from one language to another that scares me, since I do it too, nor your transformations of the text without a valid basis, but rather your haste in interpreting your findings. Can you tell us which dictionary you used for this translation?

(16-10-2020, 08:31 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Geoffrey, it's not your ease of switching from one language to another that scares me, since I do it too, nor your transformations of the text without a valid basis, but rather your haste in interpreting your findings. Can you tell us which dictionary you used for this translation?

Summary remarks made in passing are not a valid substitute for an actual detailed critique of my analysis. It is ironic that you claim that my "transformations of the text" are "without a valid basis", without providing a valid basis of your own for this claim. I will be happy to dig into a discussion of these details, but only if my critics are also willing to participate in the discussion without simply making sweeping criticisms and then refusing to respond when I answer those criticisms with detailed explanations. I will be happy to debate every single word of my interpretation. But others who wish to engage in such a debate must be willing to study the details of the Old Polish spelling practices that I included in my first post in this thread. 

Regarding my "switching from one language to another", within the context of my "West Slavic VCI" theory of reading and interpreting the script and the text, in the context of the medieval forms of the languages, switching from Czech to Sorbian to Polish to Silesian is actually a rather small adjustment. It is worth keeping in mind that a common Slavic language was spoken as late as the mid-1st millennium A.D., and it is possible that mutual intelligibility between all Slavic dialects still existed until as late as the 10th century A.D. When one considers further that we are dealing with rather closely related West Slavic languages, the connections are even more natural -- it is not like I am switching from Belarusian to Macedonian, for example. 

"Haste" is a relative term. I would argue on the contrary that the relative efficiency with which I have been able to interpret these lines according to my Slavic VCI theory is a point in its favor, rather than evidence of a flaw in my methods. If it took months to interpret every line or paragraph, that could be seen as a problematic issue with the clarity of the system of interpretation, with the ambiguity and difficulty of reading and interpreting the script possibly reaching an excessive level. 

The Voynich Ninja is an online discussion forum, not a peer-reviewed academic journal. I have published linguistics and mathematics papers in peer-reviewed academic journals, and I understand the process. I do not act in haste with respect to such a process. Sharing my thoughts and analysis in an online discussion forum such as this one is a natural preliminary step in the development and testing of a theory. I would like to point out for the record that I have not yet published a single thing about the analysis and interpretation of the Voynich manuscript text in a formal manner. To date I have always stopped short of such a step, because my hypotheses have not reached the stage where I felt that such publication was justified. It remains to be seen whether my current theory, analysis, and interpretation will reach that stage. 

You ask about which dictionary I used for this translation. I used several sources, and I will discuss them and provide citations so that you and other interested readers and critics may consult all sources for yourselves. But first of all, I do not engage in the reading and interpretation of a Slavic text needing a dictionary to understand everything. I studied Slavic linguistics at the university level, including extensive study of Russian as well as formal study of Old Church Slavonic and Ukrainian. Also, the type of bawdy language found in my interpretation of this particular paragraph is better learned from visiting and living in Slavic-speaking places and making acquaintances there, as I have. The dictionaries are useful merely to confirm one's understanding and interpretation of particular words and forms, not as the entire basis of the interpretation nor as a substitute for one's own judgment. 

Here is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Be warned: the pdf file for each individual volume is almost an entire gigabyte of data in size! So the entire work constitutes about 10 gigabytes worth of data. However, the usefulness of this dictionary is admittedly limited for the type of language I am interpreting here, as most extant Old Polish texts are religious in nature. 

The English-language Wiktionary entries for Polish words are acceptable for basic checking of standard Polish words and forms, but far better and more comprehensive are the Polish-language Wiktionary entries for Polish, Old Polish, and Silesian and other dialectal words and forms. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the 8th largest among all languages in total number of entries, with over 826 000 entries, including You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. (The only larger Wiktionaries are English, French, Russian, German, Spanish, Chinese, and Malagasy.) A large number of Polish words and forms found there can be checked and confirmed with additional details in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. A link to over 1300 Cieszyn Silesian dialectal words and forms can be found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. A link to over 1500 Upper Silesian dialectal words and forms can be found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 

I hope these links and sources will at least give you and other interested readers a good start in researching and investigating my interpretations on your own, if you so desire. 

Geoffrey

Geoffrey,

Do you mind trying a translation of the three words inside the circle that resemble a T and O map on the Rosette page?

Thanks,
Carl

(16-10-2020, 06:57 PM)CarlL Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Geoffrey,
Do you mind trying a translation of the three words inside the circle that resemble a T and O map on the Rosette page?
Thanks,
Carl

Carl,
Unfortunately these are three very short words, each one in isolation, and it is difficult for me to make much sense out of them at this stage of my investigation. I read them as follows:
top: <aras>
bottom left: <Pé~>
bottom right: <d(ch)r>
These labels are so abbreviated that it is difficult to be certain what their intended meaning was.

Geoffrey, thanks for the link to the dictionary. 
I didn't know you were a linguist, so I'm in a no position to judge your results. However I notice in the first word, for example, you invert the consonants and add a vowel, without giving the details if there are other possibilities  with the same consonants and other vowels. I admit that if you allow me to invert the consonants, I should read the word "pdzo" rather like поздъ or поздѣ - late.

(16-10-2020, 11:08 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Geoffrey, thanks for the link to the dictionary. 
I didn't know you were a linguist, so I'm in a no position to judge your results. However I notice in the first word, for example, you invert the consonants and add a vowel, without giving the details if there are other possibilities  with the same consonants and other vowels. I admit that if you allow me to invert the consonants, I should read the word "pdzo" rather like поздъ or поздѣ - late.

I must point out that I retain the final vowel sound "o" as it appears in my reading, as the Polish nasalized vowel "ą" is actually pronounced as a nasalized "o" sound. So, if you want to match this with your idea, you would need to find a Slavic form meaning 'late' that is either written or pronounced "pozdo". I am not aware of any such form that has lost the "n" in "pozdno" but retains the final "o". 

Nevertheless, it is true that with a writing system such as this one--or Old Polish, for that matter--there will be potential ambiguities where it is possible to interpret a written word in multiple ways. The question then is, if you want to read this word in an alternate way, can you read and interpret the entire line in a way that makes sense with this other interpretation of the word? To take your example, if we simply substitute "pozdV" for "pizdą" in this line, it does not make nearly as much logical sense, given the other words in the line. Furthermore, Polish itself does not have such a form meaning 'late' with the "d" but without the "n"--rather, the Polish form is "późno". Czech does have the form "pozdě", albeit with the wrong vowel at the end. But even if we set this aside, we would then need to produce a logical and sensible Czech reading and interpretation of the entire line with this word. I very much doubt that it is possible to do so.

Well, the original objection from Marco still stands, namely that the selection of the VCI is based on just one of a great number of different possible verbose ciphers.

Let's say that this number is 100. Koen and Marco perhaps tried about that number of different combinations in the 'entropy hunting 3' work, but there are many more that they did not try. So let's stay conservative and use 100.

The next step is mapping the VCI to plain text characters. For an alphabet size of (say) 25, it is well known that there are 25! (factorial) different ways of doing that, which is of the order 10**25. However, that is clearly pessimistic. Let's again be conservative and assume that we know which are the 5 vowels and the 20 consonants. We can swap the vowels freely (5!) and for each consonant we would have 3 options. This gives 5! times 3**20 possibilities, which is close to one million, and there is no particular reason to pick one or the other except for a 'feeling' or 'intuition'.

The probability of having it right is already 1 in 10**8.

Next, the words need to be adjusted to make them 'real old Polish words'. Again, being conservative, let's say that only every second word has two different options. Now there are 38 words, so that gives 2**19 different versions, which is half a million.

In the end, the possibility of having the right Polish text is conservatively estimated as 1 in 5 * 10**13.

How should this number be interpreted?

It means that you could have, with equal probability, followed 5 * 10**13 different procedures to arrive at an old Polish plain text without ever knowing, along the way, if it was the right one.