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Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

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• Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Helmut Winkler > 16-08-2016, 06:48 PM

  There is no reason to believe that the VMs is written in an unknown language as there is no reason to believe it is a ciphre, all the statistical studies were done on unabbreviated texts, while the VMs is  a highly  abbreviated text. I would love to make a transcription of an highly abbreviated medical or other scientific medieval ms. without resolving it and let you do some statistics.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Sam G > 16-08-2016, 07:14 PM

  ..............

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  davidjackson > 16-08-2016, 08:57 PM

  The point Sam, and others, is what you originally posted in your original thread back on page one.
  A new thread has been opened on methodology, so can I ask we all return to the original topic of this thread - your mosaics, which I find interesting.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  R. Sale > 16-08-2016, 09:50 PM

  And back to the cat. Here, kitty, kitty.
  
  Here is the only Leo - so far- that shows its tongue. It's from a 1480 French reprint of a book by Bartholomaeus Angelicus. He was English and died in 1272.
  
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  In looking for tongues, it appeared that most all of the early versions of August Leo illustrations have the cat's tail between its legs. And this is strongly in contrast with having the tail held up above the cat's back which is shown in the mosaic. 
  
  It might be the same cat in the middle (VMs vs mosaic), but it's different at both ends.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 16-08-2016, 11:13 PM

  R. Sale, I might be mistaken, but isn't that exactly what Sam proposes? Kind of an updated or patched up version of the older inagery, resulting in a cat with properties of both

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  R. Sale > 17-08-2016, 12:26 AM

  Koen,
  
  Well, you might be, not that I have a particular position either for or against. I'm just making observations.
  
  1. The face, with tongue extended, seems to be rather unusual in August lions. But, unless this is a saber-toothed cat with one big tooth missing, then the VMs cat has its tongue visible. Exit, stage left.
  
  2. The tail position is a contradiction. The VMs Leo and various other medieval examples show a cat with its tail between its legs or under its belly. The mosaic cat ,with its elevated tail position, is just the opposite of a typical early medieval representation of Leo .
  
  So my question is: If such elements as these have been added or reversed, has anything been retained? Is visual similarity intentional or accidental? Do we know how to tell the difference?
  
  
  Do we even know whether the mosaic was a great tourist attraction throughout its entire existence or was it lost under the sand for 1500 years? What if the mosaic was covered over and everyone who had any knowledge of it had passed away centuries ago, how could it have any influence? On the other hand, perhaps the VMs author came from Tunis and the mosaic was in the back yard? Lots of food for speculation.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 17-08-2016, 02:15 AM

  The point is that big cats were shown with such a tree in that position more than once - Diane showed a coin with the same. So the reasoning is that the original image was one of the same tradition. 
  
  One way of explaining why the tree has become an extension of the tail is that maybe the exemplar was faded or damaged. Or that it was drawn in a way that made it look like the tip of the tail to the medieval copyist. Or that the copyist just did not wish to draw this tree and turned into something more zodiac-acceptable...

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  MarcoP > 17-08-2016, 04:38 AM

  (16-08-2016, 09:50 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is the only Leo - so far- that shows its tongue. It's from a 1480 French reprint of a book by Bartholomaeus Angelicus. He was English and died in 1272.
  
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  A few more examples of "Leo with tongue", all from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. For more details, please search that page for "Leo".
  
  
  A manuscript from the Benedictine monastery of St. Emmeram in Regensburg (Bavaria) –BSB Clm 14456, 9th century (also Taurus included)
  
  
  
  ms Walters 734 Hyginus, Astronomica, France, 12th century (f10v).
  
  
  
  Walters Museum 54523, brass bucket, Iran, XII Century (also Aries included)
  
  
  
  The Mckell Medical Almanack, – in German, illuminated manuscript on parchment [Alsace, c in German, illuminated manuscript on parchment c .1445] (posted by Darren Worley)
  

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  ReneZ > 17-08-2016, 07:42 AM

  As regards the Leo with its tail through the legs and up, apart from the two examples already shown in this thread, there are plenty more, also in 15th C woodcuts or engravings.
  Here's one of several:
  
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  That's why I see no need to invoke the more complicated suggestion that the one in the Voynich MS derives directly from a very old source where a palm tree was mistakenly changed into its tail.
  
  Unless, of course, this is true for all these Leo illustrations, but that then eliminates the direct copying from an old source.
  
  Edit:
  Here's a Leo with the tail up *and* a tree (though not a palm tree)
  
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• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  R. Sale > 17-08-2016, 09:52 PM

  Marco,
  
  Thanks for those interesting examples. To match the VMs image, I definitely have to go with the Iranian brass bucket. I'm sure that will have need of an interesting explanation.
  
  Also some similarities in aspect between your Walter 734 and the lion in the Angelicus reprint. And both are French. How about that?
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