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Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

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• Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Sam G > 18-08-2016, 10:22 AM

  Okay, so here's my original comparison along with what appear to be the two most relevant European images, both of which were provided by Marco:
  
  
  
  First of all, the only major feature of the VMS Leo not found in any of these three images is the "wobbly eyes" feature noted by Diane.  But let's set that aside for the moment, or assume that it could have been incorporated into the leopard image at some early stage.
  
  An interesting feature to note here is that although the Cod Sang 402 image matches the VMS image in terms of the overall shape of the tail (but not in terms of the "texture" of the tail, which matches the tree from the mosaic), the Cod Sang 402 image is missing the sharp pointed tongue.
  
  MS Walters 734 has the sharp pointed tongue, but the tail shape is totally wrong.
  
  Perhaps there is an example somewhere that includes both the sharp tongue and the tail shape, but both of these features seem to be rare (are there any other good examples for either of these specific features?), and also the two examples given here are from different countries, and are separated by over 100 years in time.
  
  So even if you want to completely ignore the aspects of the VMS image not found in either of these two images but shared with the Qasr mosaic, you still may have a bit of a conundrum here.
  
  What I will propose is that these features were incorporated into the VMS at different periods in time (and possibly in different places):
  
  1) Original mosaic-like image with "wobbly eyes" incorporation
  
  2) Incorporation of features from MS Walters 734, possibly in France ca. 12th century
  
  3) Reshaping of tree-tail along the lines of Cod Sang 402, possibly 14th-15th century in Switzerland or southern Germany
  

  ---

  Another thing worth noting here, is that in both the MS Walters 734 and the Cod Sang 402, the tail is curling upward in front of the lion (from our perspective), while in the VMS it is curling up behind the lion, like the tree in the Qasr mosaic image.  While of course an illustrator could have changed such a thing for any reason without requiring an external model, I do think this is a (minor) point in favor of the tree-tail theory.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  MarcoP > 18-08-2016, 11:18 AM

  (18-08-2016, 10:22 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps there is an example somewhere that includes both the sharp tongue and the tail shape, but both of these features seem to be rare (are there any other good examples for either of these specific features?), and also the two examples given here are from different countries, and are separated by over 100 years in time.
  
  ....
  
  Another thing worth noting here, is that in both the MS Walters 734 and the Cod Sang 402, the tail is curling upward in front of the lion (from our perspective), while in the VMS it is curling up behind the lion, like the tree in the Qasr mosaic image.  While of course an illustrator could have changed such a thing for any reason without requiring an external model, I do think this is a (minor) point in favor of the tree-tail theory.

  
  I find all this fun but pointless: all these details are in the range that could be easily mixed and matched by the illustrator.
  
  The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. database of images is a good site to get an idea of the differences and similarities in astrological images.
  
  
  (Very heraldic) Leo with prominent (but not pointed) tongue and three-pointed tail:
  London, British Library Add MS 17987, fol. 14r, 1446 (Germany)
  
  
  
  Leo with tail curling behind its body:
  Venice, Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana 2760, fol. 32v 12th century (Italy)
  

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 18-08-2016, 11:49 AM

  Marco - so you think it's proper to "mix and match" aspects from a wide range of sources? Those lions you posted look nothing like the Voynich cat.
  
  Also, keep in mind that many manuscripts on the Warburg website (not talking about the ones you provide here) were illuminated with imagery found in ancient sources.
  
  
  Sam - your analysis is fine. It looks to me as if the mosaic feline is from the same tradition is the exemplar used for the VM, although perhaps not a direct ancestor. Maybe more like an uncle. It would be interesting if we could find more examples of cats with trees, though I'm afraid that most artwork from the relevant time and area has been lost.
  

  ---

  Just some quick googling. These are just some examples to show what was customary at the time, NOT proposals for Voynich feline's direct ancestors. 
  
  My favorite one is a pair of Roman mosaics from Puglia (heel of Italy). The top one especially seems relevant:
  
  
  
  2ndC Roman, Tunisia. Tiger, intertwined with tree.
  
  
  100 BCE, Delos. Panther, wobbly eyes, lifted paw, pointy tongue.
  
  
  Feline with tree from Pompeii
  
  
  Coin posted before by Diane:
  
  
  I wonder if the tree was originally a symbol of Dionysios, since panthers, tigers and similar large felines were sacred to him. This offers a perfectly reasonable explanation for the transformation: the tree symbolism was not recognized anymore by later copyists and seen as superfluous, was reworked or wrongly interpreted as the tail.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 18-08-2016, 01:02 PM

  And apparently even in action scenes, trees were placed right behind felines:
  
  From a Roman villa in Lod, Israel:
  
  
  From a Byzantine church in Kissufim, Israel:
  
  
  The fact that many examples are found from early to late within the Greco-Roman sphere of influence indicates that the depiction of certain felines with a tree in the middle of their backs was a convention. This strengthens the analysis put forward by Diane and Sam, that the Voynich feline is a debased version of this form.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Sam G > 18-08-2016, 01:09 PM

  (18-08-2016, 11:18 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find all this fun but pointless: all these details are in the range that could be easily mixed and matched by the illustrator.

  
  Well, the point is that in order to mix and match the details, the illustrator must have been aware of these details to begin with, and it's not immediately clear that any single medieval illustrator would have been.
  
  Thanks for the additional images.  I'm aware that there are quite a few images of lions with tongues sticking out, but I think the sharp tongue is specific enough that it should be accounted for, and so far it looks like there is only one known parallel - from 12th century France.
  
  As far as the three-pronged tail, that's interesting, but I still think the Cod Sang 402 is a much better match in terms of the shape (and actually if it weren't for the specific match in terms of the shape, I would not see much need to account for it as an influence at all, since the tail still looks mostly like the tree from the mosaic).
  

  ---

  Honestly, looking at this again... there really is probably no need to assume that Cod Sang 402 influenced the VMS image at all.  We can account for pretty much everything with the mosaic and the MS Walters 734.  The tree could have just been made smaller, and coincidentally it happened to resemble the tail from Cod Sang 402 in its basic outline (but not "texture" or overall appearance).  Although like I said, it doesn't cause a problem to account for it if we want to.
  
  Either way, it's still interesting that even in (most if not all of) its European aspects, the VMS Leo points not toward 15th century Germany, but toward 12th century France.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  MarcoP > 18-08-2016, 01:40 PM

  I am lost.
  Here is a simple YES/NO question. A single word is needed to reply. All replies will be appreciated.
  
  Objectively speaking, is there a tree in the Voynich Leo illustration?
  
  It's difficult to agree on "this is more similar than that", but it seems we cannot agree even on something as basic as the answer to the question above.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 18-08-2016, 01:45 PM

  There is no tree, but the evidence makes it quite acceptable that a tree got reinterpreted, intentionally or not, as a tail by later copyists.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Sam G > 18-08-2016, 01:56 PM

  (18-08-2016, 01:40 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am lost.
  Here is a simple YES/NO question. A single word is needed to reply. All replies will be appreciated.
  
  Objectively speaking, is there a tree in the Voynich Leo illustration?
  
  It's difficult to agree on "this is more similar than that", but it seems we cannot agree even on something as basic as the answer to the question above.

  
  If I had to choose, I would say YES, but of course I'm saying that the "entity" in question is sort of a hybrid - a tree from the mosaic that was reinterpreted as the end of the tail when the image was "Europeanized".
  
  To be clear, the tree-tail still resembles the mosaic tree far more than it resembles any Leo tail I've seen.  I said that before, and you posted Cod Sang 402.  I admit that it's similar in its basic outline, but don't see it as possible that the VMS Leo tree-tail was derived from that image.  The similarity could be due to coincidence, or to a later reshaping of the tree-tail under the influence of something similar to that image.
  

  ---

  Also, something I should have mentioned in my original post, is that the analysis by JKP that I linked to also referred to this entity as simply a tree with no qualification:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

  Quote:None of the tongue-Leos had a tree in the background, either, so it seems the VMS Leo is unique in a number of ways.
  
  ...
  
  The VMS Leo diverges from tradition and the tree in the background looks like it might be a palm tree rather than a deciduous tree, entirely appropriate if you consider lions are mostly concentrated in hot countries.

  
  So clearly I'm not the first person who has seen a tree here.
  
  And no, JKP's post is not where I got the idea - I had already found the mosaic and noticed the similarity before I consulted his page.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Koen G > 18-08-2016, 04:31 PM

  I stand corrected, Sam and JKP are right: it could actually be a tree if the cat's tail ends behind its back and there is an invisible horizon running behind it. I also agree that the Qasr mosaic provides the best example for this tree. 
  
  Interestingly, the same set of mosaics show a different tree behind the lion. The one with the three branches usually appears behind the leopard.

• RE: Qasr mosaic leopard and VMS Leo/August image

  Sam G > 18-08-2016, 04:50 PM

  Something else worth considering is that these European Leo images seem to show a wide diversity of tail endings, some of them unusual.  Was doing something funky with the end of Leo's tail an established convention, like a way for the illustrator to display a bit of creativity?  If so, that could possibly explain the seemingly inexplicable retention of the tree as a tail ending.
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