ReneZ > 16-08-2016, 12:37 PM
(16-08-2016, 12:04 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Her statement that Aries has been "redrawn from a calendar" is plainly a suggestion that the Aries image originated outside the usual collection of Zodiac imagery.
Sam G > 16-08-2016, 12:56 PM
(16-08-2016, 12:37 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-08-2016, 12:04 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Her statement that Aries has been "redrawn from a calendar" is plainly a suggestion that the Aries image originated outside the usual collection of Zodiac imagery.
Not really. It would be a zodiac cycle that is part of a calendar.
ReneZ > 16-08-2016, 01:11 PM
(16-08-2016, 11:57 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The answer to this question is very simple. The scribe did not see this mosaic.
Rene mentions just one possibility in his last post: Aratus manuscripts. I learned from Marion Dolan's doctoral thesis about the subject that the Carolingians' intent was to safeguard the knowledge of the Ancients. They copied the texts as far as they were available. And for the imagery, they searched far and wide (including North Africa) for remaining useful images: mosaics, frescos, carvings, public monuments, calendars...
Hence, the Aratean tradition was one way the imagery, concepts and style of the ancients found their way right into the heart of Europe.
There are many, many other ways for ancient imagery to find its way to Europe. Take Baresch' learned traveler who went to Egypt to gather knowledge. Take Diane's wandering traders, who maintained Hellenistic documents just because they were incredibly useful.
R. Sale is right: we should not argue for a one-to-one correspondence. Diane had posted a very similar image before in which it was clear that the tail was originally a palm tree. Now Sam posts a mosaic with much the same palm tree and even more similarities. It is clear that this was a common way of depiction. Moreover, Diane's example was in a coin, and coins travel. But there were likely once dozens of such images found in a wider area, and many dozens more copies of those spread far and wide.
R. Sale is once again right: the head is different. This means that the VM cat was altered or copied from a similar source. Diane has written about the depiction of the eyes which, together with the splash of blood on the hind leg, point to a post-Hellenistic tradition of neutralizing images that were seen as threatening. If I recall correctly, this points towards the Carolingians again.
This way the puzzle of transmission can be assembled. The tail, the blue spots, lack of mane... are likely indications that the original source was classical. The head and other factors point towards another stage of alteration.
We are not looking for the direct source, that is futile. We are looking for pieces of the puzzle. And in my opinion, Sam provided a corner piece
(16-08-2016, 12:56 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps. I would say that her statement isn't quite clear, and it's also not clear whether this is offered merely as a suggestion or something she saw as absolutely certain. Also worth keeping in mind here that we only have her statements in the form of a "translation/summary" by Rafal Prinke. So I still don't see a contradiction, and certainly I don't see any basis for using her statements as a sort of "expert-opinion-in-a-box" that can be used to dispose of any evidence that may surface at any point in the future. It's basically just attributing an opinion to her that she never expressed.
Diane > 16-08-2016, 01:49 PM
ReneZ > 16-08-2016, 02:38 PM
MarcoP > 16-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Koen G > 16-08-2016, 03:08 PM
ReneZ > 16-08-2016, 03:54 PM
Anton > 16-08-2016, 04:19 PM
Sam G > 16-08-2016, 06:05 PM
(16-08-2016, 03:54 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Putting it all together.... there are lots of good reasons why the Voynich MS, though a bit unusual, is a European MS from the early 15th C or the middle of the 15th C. The castle with the pronounced crenellations, the oak-and-ivy illustration, and others are clearly contemporary elements.
A direct descendance from a source of more than 1000 years before is a very challenging suggestion, and seems at odds with basically all expert opinions. Arguing for it will require very solid points.