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A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
- A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Jacob Carolus > 09-10-2026, 03:57 PM
The ivory jars also interesting:
Ivory Jars: Made subtractively on a complex ornamental lathe. Instead of bending strips, the master artisan takes a single, solid block of ivory. Using specialized curved hooked blades (Passig-Werkzeuge), they hollow out the inside layer by layer. The turner carves a series of micro-thin, perfectly fitting concentric jars or spheres nested entirely inside each other out of that one solid piece. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Jacob Carolus > 09-10-2026, 04:36 PM
In line with the logic... It's worth mentioning to point out too, there were no elephants in Italy in the 14th century. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Bluetoes101 > 09-10-2026, 10:10 PM
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Koen G > 10-10-2026, 07:20 AM
I think that's exactly the same thing.
The picture shared earlier in this thread has little to do with Rudolf, but appears to be part of the Pommerscher Kunstschrank You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
These were elaborate cabinets with lots of little doors and drawers, each filled with different curiosities. But also regular objects, like an apothecary set, a barber set, game boards...
If you go to the wiki I linked, you can see the bentwood boxes in the final picture. This time not with the apothecary stuff, but with other tools.
In short, these are bentwood boxes, stacked for display. Just like the tiered stack of two in your picture. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 10-10-2026, 08:01 AM
(09-10-2026, 03:57 PM)Jacob Carolus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ivory jars also interesting:
(...) perfectly fitting concentric jars or spheres nested entirely inside each other out of that one solid piece.
(the bold part highlighted by me)
This sounds like a perfect description for the VMS vessels. Literally, word by word. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Koen G > 10-10-2026, 08:42 AM
(09-10-2026, 03:22 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As I mentioned earlier, the ivory artworks are based on a stylistic language that had already been in use for centuries. The only thing new are the risky constructions.
Indeed. These ivory pieces were displays of skill and ingenuity (sometimes the nobles themselves would learn how to make one, to they too could show off their skills). It seems that what they add on to already existing forms is a whole lot of whimsy of the kind we do not find in the VM vessels. The items below also include some of these "perfectly fitting concentric jars or spheres nested entirely inside each other out of that one solid piece", which are apparently a perfect description for the VMS vessels word by word. The craftsman would show off by carving a smaller piece inside of another. Since the holes in the external sphere are too small to have fitted the internal object through, it is clear to the viewer that this feat was achieved through extraordinary skill (that's why they were all so fond of it).
Here's the image of the bentwood boxes from the Wiki, this time arranged with the "Instruments", in a taller stack:
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
gerrydelasel > 10-10-2026, 01:31 PM
Personally I find the idea that the objects drawn in the VM are merely containers is a bit naive. Why would the artist draw containers? What useful information would that convey to anyone reading a recipe? I think the things in the VM are more significant to the recipe, like percolating devices or ovens / kachelofens. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 10-10-2026, 03:47 PM
(10-10-2026, 01:31 PM)gerrydelasel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I find the idea that the objects drawn in the VM are merely containers is a bit naive. Why would the artist draw containers? What useful information would that convey to anyone reading a recipe? I think the things in the VM are more significant to the recipe, like percolating devices or ovens / kachelofens.
There is a school of thought that says they have no meaning in particular, because the VMS is a later forgery.
The fact that no experts can agree on what exactly those objects are, despite considerable knowledge of medieval imagery, reinforces this hypothesis. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
gerrydelasel > 10-10-2026, 04:26 PM
That reinforces nothing, it just passes the burden of 'what is this thing?' from a non-forger to a forger.