- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
- A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
-
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 08-10-2026, 09:27 AM
Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false.
However it is possible that a forger in the 16th century made the VMS so that he can sell it to Rudolf II. The forgery hypothesis does not have to concern the 20th century only.
And as I said, plants grafting, as it is called, started in the 16th century as well. Botanists created "Frankenstein plants", by grafting roots and leaves from one plant, onto the stem of another plant. And this practice was also done in the context of cabinets of curiosity, like the one Rudolf II famously posessed. Does this sound familiar? -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 08-10-2026, 09:42 AM
Here is the part about plant grafting that I was talking about:
-
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
gerrydelasel > 08-10-2026, 10:50 AM
(08-10-2026, 09:27 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false.
Maybe not in ivory, but highly ornate vessels in other materials did. Communion cups, reliquaries, pyx, censers, apothecary jars, even kachelofens. Ciboriums are particularly ornate.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
-
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JoJo_Jost > 08-10-2026, 03:53 PM
(08-10-2026, 09:27 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false.
Just a quick note: The quote does not refer to ivory, but rather to the fact that the vessels drew on 15th-century forms, which were, however, common in the “art of goldsmithing.”
Only the very daring designs can be classified as Baroque, and these are NOT found in the VMS either.
-
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 09-10-2026, 07:28 AM
Let me point out to both of you, that while the simpler forms of those reliquaries, or "ornate vessels" in the example above might indeed look like one or two Voynich containers, the more ornate ones, with the many embedded ornaments and the weird tripod (or n-pod) feet do not have any ressemblance to 1400s containers, as much as the ivory vases do.
The ivories room in Palazzo Pitti literally looks like an assortment of Voynich containers. Like someone made life-like versions of those illustrations. They all have those features and variations of the Voynich vessels, including the variations in base, body and cupole-like top.
To me, these ivories are the best match for the VMS vessels, so far. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JoJo_Jost > 09-10-2026, 08:59 AM
I don't understand that—the quote from the description explicitly states that the feet and other elements were created based on models from the “previous century,” that is, the 15th century. Only these very strange and bizarre shapes can be attributed to the Baroque period. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
gerrydelasel > 09-10-2026, 10:26 AM
What is this container? Is it a single object or just three nesting boxes stacked on top of one another?
-
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
eggyk > 09-10-2026, 10:33 AM
(09-10-2026, 08:59 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand that—the quote from the description explicitly states that the feet and other elements were created based on models from the “previous century,” that is, the 15th century. Only these very strange and bizarre shapes can be attributed to the Baroque period.
The date at that link states 1626, which makes "previous century" the 16th century, or 1500s, right? -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Koen G > 09-10-2026, 11:48 AM
(09-10-2026, 10:26 AM)gerrydelasel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is this container? Is it a single object or just three nesting boxes stacked on top of one another?
I also wondered. Since some of them are stacked off-center and all appear lidded, I suspect they are containers that can fit inside one another like nesting dolls, but have been stacked for display purposes. Just a guess though. Maybe they are displayed for their craftmanship rather than a specific function, though that's hard to tell from the picture.