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A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
- A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JoJo_Jost > 10-10-2026, 05:18 PM
If you look closely, those could be pipe fittings that fit together. But that's just another theory... -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Mauro > 10-10-2026, 08:51 PM
(10-10-2026, 01:31 PM)gerrydelasel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I find the idea that the objects drawn in the VM are merely containers is a bit naive. Why would the artist draw containers? What useful information would that convey to anyone reading a recipe? I think the things in the VM are more significant to the recipe, like percolating devices or ovens / kachelofens.
Each herb/concoction might need a specific container for magical or ritualistic reasons or purposes. They surely look as a collection of fancy containers to me, where the artist worked with his imagination, as he did with the plants in the herbal section. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
Bluetoes101 > 10-10-2026, 09:14 PM
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
proto57 > 10-10-2026, 11:44 PM
(10-10-2026, 03:47 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(10-10-2026, 01:31 PM)gerrydelasel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I find the idea that the objects drawn in the VM are merely containers is a bit naive. Why would the artist draw containers? What useful information would that convey to anyone reading a recipe? I think the things in the VM are more significant to the recipe, like percolating devices or ovens / kachelofens.
There is a school of thought that says they have no meaning in particular, because the VMS is a later forgery.
The fact that no experts can agree on what exactly those objects are, despite considerable knowledge of medieval imagery, reinforces this hypothesis.
Yes, I agree. When I compiled my list of the 12 "Red Flags of Forgery" from reading a great many books on the history of art and literary forgery, one item on that list was exactly that: A wide range of expert disagreement on comparisons to real objects and iconography, on meaning, on age, on authorship, on art historical styles and techniques, and so on, tended to be found in forgeries, and rarely, or to a far lesser degree, on genuine items.
I think the reason for this is obvious: A person who is creating a genuine work in their time mostly knows there time, their discipline, their language, has their style from their era. So, what they produce tends to stick closer to an era and meaning which is agreeable to the experts. But a forger has all of human history to draw from, for one thing... they might tend to include things from the wrong era to the one they are faking. They also usually, unintentionally, betray their own styles from the error the forger lives in. I call this the "Star Trek Effect'. Look at an episode from the original 1960's run of the show. They were doing their damndest to portray hundreds of years ahead of their times, and changed many styles and attitudes to reflect this. But, still, we now see the bell bottom pants, the hair styles, makeup and many clearly 60's social attitudes.
Point being, TLDR, I believe the Voynich includes much varied content, and many styles, to such a level of diversity which is found in no one other work, and because of this, the wide range of expert opinions as to age, content, meaning, authorship, geography of origin, reflects this, and it is one of the red flags that tells us it is a forgery.
Rich -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
R. Sale > 10-10-2026, 11:44 PM
These two illustrations seem to show that the ideas for elaborate and colorful containers were in existence well before the ivory examples.
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Make that three.
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 05:55 AM
(10-10-2026, 11:44 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A person who is creating a genuine work in their time mostly knows there time, their discipline, their language, has their style from their era
Yes, and a great deal has been accomplished in this regard over the past year, particularly with the VMS, partly because more and more books from that period are being digitized.
Thanks to these comparisons, it’s now becoming increasingly possible to narrow down the location where the manuscript must have been written, and we can also link specific objects to more and more books from that period that the scribe seemed to be familiar with.
I think that’s precisely one reason why it must have been written in the 15th century, because Voynich clearly did not yet have access to these comparisons with other books or to the knowledge of that era.
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RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
proto57 > 11 hours ago
(Yesterday, 05:55 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think that’s precisely one reason why it must have been written in the 15th century, because Voynich clearly did not yet have access to these comparisons with other books or to the knowledge of that era.
Of course! Because WHERE in the World would he have found all the necessary books, art and objects people think they see in there? (wink wink nod nod)
Rich -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JoJo_Jost > 10 hours ago
That doesn't make sense. So much effort for a forgery—far too much effort. And some of these are very rare books—it's not very plausible just because he had access to libraries. Back then, even if these books existed, you still had to find them...
And what a lousy forger he must be, completely missing the point of what the times demanded—he can't have had much of a clue—after all, he went to all that effort for nothing.... -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
JustAnotherTheory > 9 hours ago
(10 hours ago)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So much effort for a forgery—far too much effort.
Never underestimate a man with an obsession
Having said that, the forgery could very well have been made by someone earlier than Voynich. Maybe someone who wanted $$$ from a well-known collector (something something Rudolf II).
The idea behind the forgery hypothesis remains the same, whether we're talking about 1912 or 1612. -
RE: A match for the containers? 16th-17th century ivory vases
DG97EEB > 9 hours ago
the Morgan Library confirms that Wilfrid Voynich sold it an illustrated manuscript of La Sfera, MS M.721, on 29 June 1927. The manuscript had passed through George Dunn's collection and Quaritch's hands following a February 1913 auction. Its precise acquisition date by Voynich remains unknown.