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[Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
- [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Jorge_Stolfi > 08-07-2026, 01:58 PM
(08-07-2026, 12:29 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So I would say: single flower, nothing and stringless star should all get the same points. If we find one with a star on a string/stalk, we will be sure to point it out is very exceptional.
The star in the VMS Virgo looks like an afterthought (or BEEP); the hand has the fingers stretched out, not curled as if holding the "stalk".
Quote:Doesn't it look obvious now that the VM Virgo must have been copied from one that was explicitly pointing a finger with that hand? Like making a finger gun?
Maybe, but note the middle one in the top row, with the dark blue dress: she is holding two fingers stretched out. A finger double-barrel shotgun?
Seriously, is that meant to be the common Christian "blessing hand" gesture?
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Jorge_Stolfi > 08-07-2026, 02:12 PM
(07-07-2026, 07:18 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But if we want facing direction to be consistent, I vote for not counting it. It seems silly to me that these should score the same, considering artists tend to swap between the two directions frequently
The artists probably never saw the facing direction by itself as symbolically significant. If there were other things in the drawing, they would probably draw each human figure facing towards the most important element. Like, all facing towards Jesus, or the King, or the main players in the event that is being illustrated.
But if the artist was copying a human figure from another manuscript, and that would be the only thing in his drawing (like the VMS Virgo), the artist must have copied it in the same orientation as in the original. Flipping the drawing while copying would make the task harder and more prone to errors.
Therefore, if the goal is to identify possible sources of "inspiration" for the Zodiac drawings, I think that the left-right orientation is a relevant detail.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Koen G > 08-07-2026, 02:47 PM
Agreed, the VM artist would not have mirrored the figure. If it were up to me, I would add finger pointing and facing left as two additional binary categories. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 08-07-2026, 03:02 PM
(08-07-2026, 02:12 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The artists probably never saw the facing direction by itself as symbolically significant. If there were other things in the drawing, they would probably draw each human figure facing towards the most important element. Like, all facing towards Jesus, or the King, or the main players in the event that is being illustrated.
But if the artist was copying a human figure from another manuscript, and that would be the only thing in his drawing (like the VMS Virgo), the artist must have copied it in the same orientation as in the original. Flipping the drawing while copying would make the task harder and more prone to errors.
Therefore, if the goal is to identify possible sources of "inspiration" for the Zodiac drawings, I think that the left-right orientation is a relevant detail.
So if the facing direction is both potentially important and potentially irrelevant, we could test this:
facing forward/back - facing right - facing left
Which would give mirror images only a slight downgrade, but would effectively seperate the detail out (and further downgrade facing forward or away, which are clearly totally wrong). Who knows, perhaps the VMS artist took inspiration from a right facing example, but decided he wanted all of the zodiac symbols to face left? The ideal situation with scoring this for me would be that mirrored examples can neatly fit under identical left-facing examples so they form a cohesive group. Having a full difference of 1 might make that more difficult/impossible.
For the arm direction, this is also difficult. I think that the differences in some of these simply come down to perspective, the specific dress/clothing, and the artist's ability. It isn't out of the question for me that the VMS virgo may have been copied badly from one of those examples. So imo the exact rotation of the shoulder, or the exact angle of the bend of the arms is less important than the fact that the forearms are pointing in the same direction (which was effectively what the current rating was based on). It's also really difficult to score those attributes consistently, while forearm direction is quite clear.
If we look at the VMS virgo, and actually think about the arm placement, it's possible that if the dress was slightly different, the arm placement would look like this:
For the holding of items, I think it comes down to how we interpret it. Is she actually holding something? If none of this can be ascertained, it's probably better to just have a binary category that addresses whether virgo is depicted alongside a star above the hands.
And we can definitely add a finger pointing score, but i'm not convinced the VMS virgo really is finger pointing. It could just be a botched attempt at drawing a clenched fist holding something. I do see how it looks that way though, so i'm not sure. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Koen G > 08-07-2026, 03:40 PM
We can also have categories that are tracked, but not added to the score. I would prefer a left/right binary, but maybe keep it out of the average. Same for finger pointing: let's track this in case it turns out to be relevant, but no need to add it to the total since we're uncertain.
Items: either way this needs to be redone. Since we don't know if the exemplar had no item, a single flower or a star, those need to be at the same level.
So would you split it? star present yes/no and a separate category "single flower or no item". We definitely need something that penalizes Virgos with rods, scales and an an entire garden worth of herbs in their hands.
About the hand posture, we can say that it is definitely not on her hip, this needs to be accounted for. Virgos with the hands oriented the correct way but one hand almost behind the body are not very similar to this one. So to be somewhat close to the Virgo's pose, the hand closest to the viewer needs to point somewhat forward and may not be behind the body. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 08-07-2026, 04:33 PM
(08-07-2026, 03:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We can also have categories that are tracked, but not added to the score. I would prefer a left/right binary, but maybe keep it out of the average. Same for finger pointing: let's track this in case it turns out to be relevant, but no need to add it to the total since we're uncertain.
Items: either way this needs to be redone. Since we don't know if the exemplar had no item, a single flower or a star, those need to be at the same level.
So would you split it? star present yes/no and a separate category "single flower or no item". We definitely need something that penalizes Virgos with rods, scales and an an entire garden worth of herbs in their hands.
About the hand posture, we can say that it is definitely not on her hip, this needs to be accounted for. Virgos with the hands oriented the correct way but one hand almost behind the body are not very similar to this one. So to be somewhat close to the Virgo's pose, the hand closest to the viewer needs to point somewhat forward and may not be behind the body.
That's a good idea. I added a section to the right to track stuff and have them not affect the averages (for the time being).
For holding item, we could take the current category and knock it down a tier?
Instead of
holding nothing - holding spica, feather, or man-made object - holding flower - holding star
we can knock them all down a tier and tweak it slightly:
holding any non-star/flower object - holding nothing OR holding single flower - holding star
No matter what, it looks like the VMS virgo is holding something on a string/ single "stem", at least to my eyes. And perhaps the VMS virgo is holding nothing, but when connecting the star they decided to connect it from the hand, perhaps similar to flower examples he had seen. The above devalues examples holding completely unrelated things, and puts holding a single flower (plausible-ish) and holding nothing on the same tier. Holding a star would of course be a full score.
If we come across a virgo with a star unconnected above the hands, we can worry then about how it should be scored? -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Koen G > 08-07-2026, 04:55 PM
Alright, that's a good compromise. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Koen G > 08-07-2026, 11:17 PM
Well spotted, I had already passed this on to eggy as a good example of how the sleeves betray the date range of the exemplar. The bull from that MS is also nice.