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Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
- Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
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RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Bernd > 7 hours ago
See
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Quote: Es handelt sich um eine Teilabschrift des Erstdrucks von Peter Schöffer aus dem Jahr 1485 (Nr. 70.3.a.). Die Angabe bei Schneider (S. 162), die Abbildungen der Handschrift seien seitenverkehrt zum Druck Hain 8949 [Nr. 70.3.b.] unterstreicht, dass die unmittelbare Vorlage der Schöffer-Druck war, eben weil der Schönsperger-Druck seitenverkehrt ist. Abgeschrieben wurden die Pflanzen aus dem A-Bereich (Arthemisia bis Astrens) und im unmittelbaren Anschluss die Pflanzen aus dem M-Bereich (Menta bis Morsus diaboli); dabei wurden die 36 Kapitel durchlaufend von 1 bis 36 gezählt. Die Handschrift weist keine Erweiterungen oder Kürzungen zum Bildprogramm des Erstdruckes auf. Die Text-Bild-Anordnung wurde so eingerichtet, dass im Gegensatz zum Druck jedes Kapitel mit der Abbildung auf einer Versoseite beginnt. Der Zeichner hat relativ exakt seine Vorlage übernommen, während die Kolorierung sehr flüchtig und großflächig durchgeführt wurde. Dabei hat man sich nicht immer an die Bildanweisungen gehalten, welche die Farbgebung (z. B. rot, grün, gelfar, wis) festlegten. In etwa der Hälfte der Illustrationen fehlt insbesondere bei den Blüten oder bei den Wurzeln die Kolorierung. Die beiden Darstellungen der Alraune (Mann und Frau) sind unkoloriert.
TL;DR
The first print of Gart der Gesundheit by Schöffer (1485) had the same orientation as Cgm 728. The later print was mirrored. So the source was the early Schöffer print.
Still a puzzling manuscript. We know it must have been created later than 1485 and was copied from a printed book, yet it shows a lot of parallels to the VM.
It also contains a charm to be written on paper as remedy on p.277
There are some kabbalistic? symbols on p. 293.
On p.344 several recipes end with ...heilt palt... (heals soon) followed by a word I can't read. It has some similarity to the 2 words before 'so nim gas mich' on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but that is probably a coincidence. It would still be interesting to check the recipes for similarities with the VM marginalia.
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RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Aga Tentakulus > 6 hours ago
The first spell is about getting rid of worms by writing the spell on a piece of paper.
P, B, probably the Lord’s Prayer.
‘tue’ = to do. -
RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Rafal > 6 hours ago
This manuscript reallly has a strong Voynich vibe!
If I got it correcltly the left page shows garlic (allium = knoblauch) and the labels seem to say "grün" (green) and "gelfau": maybe yellowish, modern standard German word is "gelblich" and Bavarian variant is "geiblat" according to Gemini.
It is too late to be a direct inspiration for VM but they may share the same ancestors.
Maybe the plants aren't the same (after all VM has imaginary plants, it's a mainstream view I guess) but some similarities like vertical "rot" text are striking. -
RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Juan_Sali > 3 hours ago
(7 hours ago)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On p.344 several recipes end with ...heilt palt... (heals soon) followed by a word I can't read
It could be latin related to benedico (to be bless, to praise).
Something like the following:
per ben(edictio) et
per ben(edic)t(io) e(t) -
RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Jorge_Stolfi > 3 hours ago
(7 hours ago)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Yesterday, 07:18 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This root has something like "rot fa...", maybe some variant on "vahl", maybe a faded red?
Did you just find the manuscript that was the Scribe's "inspiration" for page f4r?
I mean this:
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Koen G > 2 hours ago
Yeah, that's what drew my eye to it, this plant was in eggyk's opening post.
Note that the letters are rotated differently: in the VM they are standing up and stacked, while in Cgm 728, the whole word is rotated 90°CW.
In Cgm 728, another word is added, the unclear word starting "fa..." that's also added to yellow, resulting in a brown. So "yellow fa..." and "red fa..." are both brown shades.
In Cgm 728, just "rot" results in proper red. If "rot fa..." means some reddish brown, then the color we see makes sense. In the VM, however, it simply says "red" in a yellow stem above a brown root.
One hypothesis may be that the VM artist drew from a MS that already had color annotations and just took them on board, initially. These were then not followed in the painting stage [whenever that may have been, let's not turn this into another later painter debate]. If this hypothesis is correct, it would mean that the VM relied on a MS that was itself a copy with color annotations, which may or may not have been fully painted. -
RE: Voynich style herbs+text wrapping: BSB Cgm 728
Jorge_Stolfi > 14 minutes ago
(2 hours ago)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One hypothesis may be that the VM artist drew from a MS that already had color annotations and just took them on board, initially. ... If this hypothesis is correct, it would mean that the VM relied on a MS that was itself a copy with color annotations, which may or may not have been fully painted.
That is my guess too.
IIRC, those few "color keys" are all near the beginning of the Herbal section. If that is indeed the case, it could mean that the VMS Scribe at first did not know what those letters were, but eventually figured it out, or had it explained to him .
All the best, --stolfi