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[Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
- [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 07-07-2026, 06:17 PM
(07-07-2026, 05:57 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe "one hand on either side" 0, "something in between" 0.5 and "two hands in front of body" 1?
meadow with flowers (1)
hair done up (1)
band-style headgear (0.5)
clothed but not blue (0.5)
dress trails behind (1)
hand position something in between (0.5)
wingless (1)
holding something (0.5)
only tight fitting sleeves (0)
edit: for the dress trail, we could shift the trail to half a point and give it a whole point when it also "curls up" somehow?
100% agree, I think that's all pretty clear, easy to score, and addresses all of the important aspects of the design. And I think the hand thing is also reasonable. Kinda like this? (my paint skills are really coming along)
Basically anything not green or red can just go in the middle. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
DG97EEB > 07-07-2026, 06:33 PM
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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
R. Sale > 07-07-2026, 06:42 PM
Looks like we need to start shopping for dresses, but first, perhaps, to populate the data base.
Koen's three-options system worked well for the Taurus bulls. The rating system should be consistent as much as possible. If directional orientation applies in one comparison, it should be used for all. However, an extra 0.5 could be added for examples of exceptional similarity to the VMs illustration, like if you find foreground terrain with a few blades of grass and a single flower.
As far as the crescent moon, it's a subtle and ambiguous possibility - intentionally created to be that way, with a smudge of blue paint thrown in for good measure or it's nothing. Like an optical illusion, first it's one way, then it's the other - but only when the 'other' is recognized. It's not the first potential religious representation included in the VMs by any means, and not the only example of trickery either.
The hat seems to be matched by the illustration from Tres Riches Heures, if beading is optional. You can't expect the VMs artist to draw beading at that scale. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 07-07-2026, 07:18 PM
(07-07-2026, 06:42 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looks like we need to start shopping for dresses, but first, perhaps, to populate the data base.
I'm adding the pictures bit by bit for the list. There's around 40 on there right now. It's taking a while because i'm choosing to save them locally in files (ready for future signs) instead of just copy-pasting
(07-07-2026, 06:42 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Koen's three-options system worked well for the Taurus bulls. The rating system should be consistent as much as possible. If directional orientation applies in one comparison, it should be used for all.
The reason for adding some blues is to visualise the data better for rare properties. Also, a one-size-fits-all approach with so many different variables is bound to run into issues. This is, at the end of the day, subjective. And the goal is to try and find trends in the data, which is easier to do with gradients wherever possible.
For instance, if 'abrell' and 'apuril' were coloured as red instead of yellow with the month names, a lot of useful patterns there would probably have been missed.
But if we want facing direction to be consistent, I vote for not counting it. It seems silly to me that these should score the same, considering artists tend to swap between the two directions frequently:
Pisces would/should be a different story, as the facing directions are one of the main differences between depictions. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 07-07-2026, 10:42 PM
(07-07-2026, 10:19 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Schurstab Virgo:
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This is already on the sheet, (it's actually in 2nd place right now, but that will likely change as the entries are filled in properly).
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The manuscript with the virgo from DG97EEB's post is on there too, but that hasn't had the image attached yet
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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
R. Sale > 08-07-2026, 12:15 AM
Hopefully, there's a Virgo spreadsheet in the works for the various criteria.
More generally, here are the best examples so far to demonstrate the Two Sleeves Theory.
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Also, nice escoffion.
And...a pink or green undershirt.
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All from the same ms., Paris, 1410, Duke of Berry. A text that was also previously implicated in the Headband investigation. -
RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
eggyk > 08-07-2026, 12:28 AM
(08-07-2026, 12:15 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hopefully, there's a Virgo spreadsheet in the works for the various criteria.
??
The virgo spreadsheet is at that link.
Edit: Much of the list has not been filled in yet, but it's late where I am. I will try to fill out the rest of the existing list with images tommorow
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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO
Koen G > 08-07-2026, 12:29 PM
You're fast, eggy
It's probably worth pointing out that the sheet contains multiple tabs, not everyone may be familiar with that.
I've been going over some of the ratings, and there are a few things that are worth reconsidering.
Item held: I believe that holding any man-made object should lead to an automatic 0. The reason is that these are different types of Virgo, different traditions. We are simply not interested in the lineage of Virgo that holds staffs, has wings, wears crowns... Ours is of the maidenly meadowy kind. Currently You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. classical goddess or angel gets 1 because she picked a weed, but a lady in a meadow gets 0 because her hands are empty. For me, the empty-handed ladies are closer to the VM Virgo than the ones decked with regalia.
I just thought of something else. We know the zodiac artist added "tethered stars" to other signs. So shouldn't the empty-handed Virgo be rated higher than one holding a traditional piece of foliage?
In short, we don't know which of these situations is true:- The example Virgo was empty-handed, the VM added the stalk-star like it did with Scorpio
- The example Virgo had a single flower on a stalk that was "starrified" by the VM
- The example Virgo had a star (presumably not on a stalk?)
So I would say: single flower, nothing and stringless star should all get the same points. If we find one with a star on a string/stalk, we will be sure to point it out is very exceptional.
arm/hand pose: This is trickier than I initially thought. What we're seeing with the VM Virgo is two things combined: the hands are pointing forward and both hands are in front of the body. The close shoulder is turned towards us quite a bit, and the elbow is much to the front, eliminating the "triangle" you get when a hand is placed on the hip. Some examples from the spreadsheet:
How do we assess this?
By the way, I just noticed something else. Look at the top hand of the VM Virgo and the one right next to it. Doesn't it look obvious now that the VM Virgo must have been copied from one that was explicitly pointing a finger with that hand? Like making a finger gun? Can we make finger gun a category? - The example Virgo was empty-handed, the VM added the stalk-star like it did with Scorpio