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• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 06-08-2026, 08:21 PM

  (06-08-2026, 06:48 PM)denty Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also don't think it is about balneology, I would expect the drawings to adhere more closely to the drawings in the various versions of De balneis Puteolanis if that were the case, I don't see enough resemblance. It might be true that both of these types of iconography were meant to throw onlookers off the scent and keep things obscured.

  Let’s think about why the author would encrypt ordinary balneology.
  It’s like encrypting a well‑known book and adding illustrations to it so that you can definitely recognize it.
  Perhaps the author’s method of concealing the information was to deprive the illustration of meaning. The brain turned into a lake, the stomach into a bathtub, and so on. You understand that this is not balneology, but you are unable to explain what it is.
  By the way, I would also like to hear the arguments of those who think it’s about balneology or a section about some kind of technique. Seriously? Two sulfur springs? If I find two random lakes that fit this description, will you believe me?

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Jorge_Stolfi > 07-08-2026, 07:51 AM

  (06-08-2026, 06:48 PM)denty Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see the body organs in the Bio/Balneo when people present them as such (I can really only think of the ovaries and the intestines, and more recently the brain example, are there more that are clearly thought to be body parts?)

  The most obvious examples are on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f83v.  But once you become aware of the possible anatomical meaning, that becomes the most likely explanation for many other drawings in that section.  All the smooth tubes with multiple labeled branches and openings, all the small tubs with elaborate drains and feeds, ...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 07-08-2026, 02:47 PM

  (06-08-2026, 08:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let’s think about why the author would encrypt ordinary balneology.
  It’s like encrypting a well‑known book and adding illustrations to it so that you can definitely recognize it.

  The only reasons I could see are 
  1. You want to write different wording so you thwart the reading of it by fooling people into wasting time trying to decrypt to match the thing it looks like.
  2. You want this as your Rosetta stone, so that someone can decrypt it, and then apply what they have learned to the rest of the book.
  
  

  Quote:Perhaps the author’s method of concealing the information was to deprive the illustration of meaning. The brain turned into a lake, the stomach into a bathtub, and so on. You understand that this is not balneology, but you are unable to explain what it is.

  
  (I thought the brain was supposed to be the animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ?)(It isn't that to me but I can see it somewhat) Which lake do you mean the brain turns into?
  
  Do you mean that the Balneas idea loses meaning because certain parts don't look like it? I think once the iconography is identified correctly, you can see through the fact that certain things might look like other things, and they won't look like that anymore, because you will see their meaning instead of what they resemble. The identification of stomachs etc is based on seeing the tube motif as organic. But there are no tubes, in reality, the tubes are just a means of portraying something else.
  
  

  Quote:By the way, I would also like to hear the arguments of those who think it’s about balneology or a section about some kind of technique. Seriously? Two sulfur springs? If I find two random lakes that fit this description, will you believe me?

  
  I don't think it's balnealogy. Two sulfur springs? You have my attention! In my interpretation there is one, marked by the short yellow tube on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , located at the end of a lake that looks very much like a certain actual lake, which is not only that shape, but is the largest in the region, which also happens to be the region that some people think might be the origin of the vms, given the swallowtail merlons, etc., in fact one of the castles on the Swallowtail map is right there, near the sulfur spring. 
  
  Or maybe you mean You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? I think of those as hot springs due to the red on the inside, and lack of yellow, but I suppose they could be sulphur too. To me they are not random lakes, but two gulfs on an island, which were created due to underground volcanism displacing the land and replacing it with sea through faults and grabens. Would you believe that? In my proposed page ordering, this page faces your stomach page, and the two are related.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 07-08-2026, 03:13 PM

  First of all, Linda, thank you for your interest in the thread
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. You want to write different wording so you thwart the reading of it by fooling people into wasting time trying to decrypt to match the thing it looks like.

  As I understand it, you mean to rewrite the same book but encrypt it so that a person would try to decipher it...
  No one is stopping me from putting your encrypted text aside and reading the original version of the book, right?
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2. You want this as your Rosetta stone, so that someone can decrypt it, and then apply what they have learned to the rest of the book.

  Why torture the reader?
  If this is an unknown language, translate the text into a European language so that it can be read.
  If this is a cipher, then such Rosetta Stones won’t help, as they don’t reveal anything about the encryption algorithm.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which lake do you mean the brain turns into?

  The lower lake on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is shaped like a brain. The armadillo might also represent the brain, or perhaps some other organ — I don’t know.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think once the iconography is identified correctly, you can see through the fact that certain things might look like other things, and they won't look like that anymore, because you will see their meaning instead of what they resemble.

  At present, we have unconvincing similarities between balneology and alchemical instruments or something similar (standard alchemical allegories cannot be traced. If you don’t understand what I mean, look at the Ripley scrolls), with anatomy, and with... balneology itself.
  The most mysterious book tells the story of naked women bathing in various lakes in Italy, right? Apparently, the author had nothing to do, so he decided to sketch his favorite plants, his favorite lakes, his favorite women, his favorite stars, his favorite city (Rosettes), and his favorite obscene songs, which he left until the very end of the manuscript. Why not?..
  I believe that such a literal interpretation of the illustrations in VMS is mistaken and... for the most part, meaningless. Even if you prove to me that an Archimedes’ screw was indeed depicted there, you won’t be able to connect this illustration with the other illustrations.
  Even the lakes...
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my interpretation there is one, marked by the short yellow tube on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Someone interpreted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as two sulfur sources. But I don’t remember who or where. In any case, that’s exactly who I had in mind.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but is the largest in the region, which also happens to be the region that some people think might be the origin of the vms, given the swallowtail merlons, etc., in fact one of the castles on the Swallowtail map is right there, near the sulfur spring. 

  This is actually an interesting coincidence. But you can find many similar lakes under the shape of a curved oval from VMS. 
  Or maybe it’s just a puddle after the rain?  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would you believe that?

  I hold this position on VMS — I don’t believe in anything and I don’t declare anything to be true. I may find something convincing, but that doesn’t make it true. The anatomical interpretation is good because it applies to the entire section and allows for many parallels to be drawn.
  So my answer is both yes and no.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 07-08-2026, 06:40 PM

  (07-08-2026, 03:13 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.First of all, Linda, thank you for your interest in the thread
  
  Thank you for responding! 
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. You want to write different wording so you thwart the reading of it by fooling people into wasting time trying to decrypt to match the thing it looks like.

  As I understand it, you mean to rewrite the same book but encrypt it so that a person would try to decipher it...
  No one is stopping me from putting your encrypted text aside and reading the original version of the book, right?
  
  No, i mean write something else, it could be on the same topic or completely different, i meant that the drawings could just resemble balnealogy on purpose to stop people from understanding. Perhaps if they want to understand they try to compare the texts of balnealogical texts with that of the vms, but they will be thwarted.
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2. You want this as your Rosetta stone, so that someone can decrypt it, and then apply what they have learned to the rest of the book.

  Why torture the reader?
  If this is an unknown language, translate the text into a European language so that it can be read.
  If this is a cipher, then such Rosetta Stones won’t help, as they don’t reveal anything about the encryption algorithm.
  
  That I do not know, but it convinces me it is personal and not meant to be read by others. I do not think the Rosetta stone is the case here, I think it is the thwarted one. 
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which lake do you mean the brain turns into?

  The lower lake on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is shaped like a brain. The armadillo might also represent the brain, or perhaps some other organ — I don’t know.
  
  Ah I see now! For me the armadillo is an Ibex in the shape of the Alps, and that page discusses the other Alpine lakes and rivers. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the Caspian and Aral Seas to me, and is the first page of the Asia & Africa section, but not the actual first page of the quire.
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think once the iconography is identified correctly, you can see through the fact that certain things might look like other things, and they won't look like that anymore, because you will see their meaning instead of what they resemble.

  At present, we have unconvincing similarities between balneology and alchemical instruments or something similar (standard alchemical allegories cannot be traced. If you don’t understand what I mean, look at the Ripley scrolls), with anatomy, and with... balneology itself.
  
  To me it is something different again, but I maintain that the alternate takes are from going by what it looks looks like, and not by meaning that is cleaned from noticing the commonalities in the iconography and determining what they stand for. I am working on a long description of these, I hope to post it soon, I think I started that post years and years ago!
  
  The most mysterious book tells the story of naked women bathing in various lakes in Italy, right? Apparently, the author had nothing to do, so he decided to sketch his favorite plants, his favorite lakes, his favorite women, his favorite stars, his favorite city (Rosettes), and his favorite obscene songs, which he left until the very end of the manuscript. Why not?..
  I believe that such a literal interpretation of the illustrations in VMS is mistaken and... for the most part, meaningless. Even if you prove to me that an Archimedes’ screw was indeed depicted there, you won’t be able to connect this illustration with the other illustrations.
  Even the lakes...
  
  Well, I think some are lakes, some are seas, some are salt lakes, some are bays, none are ever of the same type unless they are shown together, and then some which are shown together are still different. I do think Italian lakes are included but it is not about Italy per se. I think the Rosettes are similar, and encompass the same area, which is to say the ecumene that is found in most ancient mappa mundi. 
  
  I don't think there is an Archemedian screw. I think that drawing on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that you see as a stomach is a shoreline and shows the convoluted sailing route to go between Lesbos and the Turkish shore. The bathtub would be the bay in which Izmir (aka Smyrna) is located, because it is in a bay that extends past the bay that would be considered part of the stomach, or sailing route, in this case. 
  
  
  
  Can you see that the semicircle motifs can be analogous to the three promontories on the shore? That the bathtub can be the Izmir bay, and the drain section could be the little bay that is separated from the Izmir bay by another promontory? The siltiness makes sense there too, there are lots of beaches. The nymph is just there to show all of it is the same water. There is a little bit of mountain motif behind the nymph, there are over 130 named mountains in the Izmir area, so this works too. In 1415 and again in 1426 the Ottomans took this area, (It had previously been considered Greek) so this could be recent news from the perspective of the artist. The rest of the page is also regarding places bordering on the Aegean Sea. It is not perfect, but they did not have satellite images to go by either, plus they put their own ambiguity to it, which has been very successful, it seems. But I think this is what is portrayed not only because of a direct comparison, but because i see the whole thing as a periplus, and no area is left out. So I find that somewhat convincing, myself. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. continues the periplus by showing the Sea of Marmora, and highlights Constantinople, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. makes it a centrefold. 
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my interpretation there is one, marked by the short yellow tube on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Someone interpreted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as two sulfur sources. But I don’t remember who or where. In any case, that’s exactly who I had in mind.
  
  Oh, f84v, I don't know where the sulphur springs are supposed to be, but in my interpretation they are two volcanic lakes in Italy, so that could also be possible, they were formed by the collapse of the magma chambers below them. The northern one is the largest volcanic lake in Europe. If you kept following the stream downward, (although it is not a real river or stream, it just connects similar waters, so just follow the direction between the actual lakes, which is more of a 45 degree angle) you might arrive in Rome, about 32km to the SW. The previous page is the Tyrrhennian and Adriatic seas along with another lake of a different origin, which is central on the peninsula and northeast of these two. They are all the largest lakes on the Italian peninsula.
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but is the largest in the region, which also happens to be the region that some people think might be the origin of the vms, given the swallowtail merlons, etc., in fact one of the castles on the Swallowtail map is right there, near the sulfur spring. 

  This is actually an interesting coincidence. But you can find many similar lakes under the shape of a curved oval from VMS. 
  Or maybe it’s just a puddle after the rain?  
  
  Well, I don't think there are too many lakes shaped like this, especially at this size. Notice that if you flip the yellow thing into the water, that peninsula there is where the sulphur springs and castle are, and if you tip over the vms version to match the tilt in the photo, that it puts the area in a more comparative setting.
  
  
  
  I suppose it could be possible it's a puddle, but in this case the line at the top of f80r, I see as a shoreline, with analogous items on it that match the upper western Mediterranean shore, and in reality this lake is on that line if you extend the line into the land, although at a much smaller scale, and in a different orientation, but if you turn a map so that the shoreline is straight like that from about Cartegena to Pisa, you will see that Lake Garda would be about central on top of the Italian peninsula. That is why I think the page that follows You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with the seas and central lake, so that those two pages work together to show both the Alpine regions and the peninsula and surrounding seas altogether. This is followed by Adriatic sea's far shore (note that in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it has been stripped of imagery on that side), and the Danube watershed on the other side of the mountains from there, seen at the same time as the Aegean shores below that. The Black Sea and Sea of Azov ends up getting you to the Baltic and Atlantic to get back to where it started in Portugal, or alternatively getting you to the Caspian, then to Armenia, the fertile crescent, Persian Gulf in Iran, Indus river in Pakistan, Gujurat in India, Gulf of Aden, Red Sea, and the Nile.
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would you believe that?

  I hold this position on VMS — I don’t believe in anything and I don’t declare anything to be true. I may find something convincing, but that doesn’t make it true. The anatomical interpretation is good because it applies to the entire section and allows for many parallels to be drawn.
  So my answer is both yes and no.

  
  Of course, we still don't know, i appreciate that you have an open mind. But I hope to show soon that there are lots of coincidences that make me feel like I am on the right track. For example, on F76v, why do you think the green water is drawn at an angle? Sloppiness? Because when I align the river motif at the top of the drawing with the actual river that i think it portrays, the analogous water body is situated at the same angle. That has to be more than coincidence, doesn't it? It certainly leaves me with a case of confirmation bias that is going to be difficult to overcome in order to believe we are talking about nothing but stomachs and brains. In any case, we probably won't know anything until we figure out the text. 
  
  Thanks for asking about alternative theories and taking the time to discuss my identifications with an open mind, i appreciate the opportunity to explore the differing ideas. Until more concrete theories develop, i guess that is all we can do, to discuss and explore the various ideas. I still keep the anatomical line open, mostly because so many other people seem to believe in it quite strongly. But i see it as more of a congruent possibility, moreso because Ellie Velinska's identifications had worked out from foot to head when I put them in my page ordering, which i thought was also very coincidental. But now there are far more different body parts and alternative identifications of differing drawings being the same body parts, so it is getting more murky and difficult to reconcile the anatomical theories, for me anyway.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 07-08-2026, 07:03 PM

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No, i mean write something else, it could be on the same topic or completely different, i meant that the drawings could just resemble balnealogy on purpose to stop people from understanding. Perhaps if they want to understand they try to compare the texts of balnealogical texts with that of the vms, but they will be thwarted.

  Well... If this were about balneology, there would be no need to encrypt it.
  These could indeed be lakes, but in that case, we don’t know the context. Perhaps the author sketched them to indicate where he hid his great treasures, or anything else, but definitely not balneology.
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can you see that the semicircle motifs can be analogous to the three promontories on the shore?

  Three semicircles and three spines — the only similarity here is in the quantity. This is a very forced comparison, and this “intestine” looks least of all like a coastline. Why not just draw three semicircles and leave an empty space behind them? That would make it clearer that it’s a coastline.
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, I don't think there are too many lakes shaped like this, especially at this size. Notice that if you flip the yellow thing into the water, that peninsula there is where the sulphur springs and castle are, and if you tip over the vms version to match the tilt in the photo, that it puts the area in a more comparative setting.

  Now this is more interesting and more convincing...
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That I do not know, but it convinces me it is personal and not meant to be read by others. I do not think the Rosetta stone is the case here, I think it is the thwarted one. 

  Most likely, VMS was indeed not intended for a wide audience. But in that case, the clues are redundant, since we assume that the sender and the recipient of this manuscript knew what was written there, knew how to read it, and knew what to do with it.
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For example, on F76v, why do you think the green water is drawn at an angle? Sloppiness? Because when I align the river motif at the top of the drawing with the actual river that i think it portrays, the analogous water body is situated at the same angle. That has to be more than coincidence, doesn't it?

  Maybe it’s a coincidence, maybe it’s not... Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about it
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. But i see it as more of a congruent possibility, moreso because Ellie Velinska's identifications had worked out from foot to head when I put them in my page ordering, which i thought was also very coincidental.

  Unfortunately, I haven’t read her study. I suppose that if it’s about anatomy, then the sequence is completely different — from head to feet.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 07-08-2026, 07:29 PM

  (07-08-2026, 07:51 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (06-08-2026, 06:48 PM)denty Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see the body organs in the Bio/Balneo when people present them as such (I can really only think of the ovaries and the intestines, and more recently the brain example, are there more that are clearly thought to be body parts?)

  The most obvious examples are on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f83v.  But once you become aware of the possible anatomical meaning, that becomes the most likely explanation for many other drawings in that section.  All the smooth tubes with multiple labeled branches and openings, all the small tubs with elaborate drains and feeds, ...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  
  May I ask, what is the body part on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thought to be?

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Dana Scott > 07-08-2026, 08:06 PM

  (07-08-2026, 03:13 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.First of all, Linda, thank you for your interest in the thread
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. You want to write different wording so you thwart the reading of it by fooling people into wasting time trying to decrypt to match the thing it looks like.

  As I understand it, you mean to rewrite the same book but encrypt it so that a person would try to decipher it...
  No one is stopping me from putting your encrypted text aside and reading the original version of the book, right?
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.2. You want this as your Rosetta stone, so that someone can decrypt it, and then apply what they have learned to the rest of the book.

  Why torture the reader?
  If this is an unknown language, translate the text into a European language so that it can be read.
  If this is a cipher, then such Rosetta Stones won’t help, as they don’t reveal anything about the encryption algorithm.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which lake do you mean the brain turns into?

     
  The lower lake on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is shaped like a brain. 
  
  Since the largest lady/nymph in the lower/brain lake is holding what appears to be a sponge,
  I am inclined to favor a balneological setting.
  
  Regards,
  Dana Scott
  
  The armadillo might also represent the brain, or perhaps some other organ — I don’t know.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think once the iconography is identified correctly, you can see through the fact that certain things might look like other things, and they won't look like that anymore, because you will see their meaning instead of what they resemble.

  At present, we have unconvincing similarities between balneology and alchemical instruments or something similar (standard alchemical allegories cannot be traced. If you don’t understand what I mean, look at the Ripley scrolls), with anatomy, and with... balneology itself.
  The most mysterious book tells the story of naked women bathing in various lakes in Italy, right? Apparently, the author had nothing to do, so he decided to sketch his favorite plants, his favorite lakes, his favorite women, his favorite stars, his favorite city (Rosettes), and his favorite obscene songs, which he left until the very end of the manuscript. Why not?..
  I believe that such a literal interpretation of the illustrations in VMS is mistaken and... for the most part, meaningless. Even if you prove to me that an Archimedes’ screw was indeed depicted there, you won’t be able to connect this illustration with the other illustrations.
  Even the lakes...
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my interpretation there is one, marked by the short yellow tube on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Someone interpreted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as two sulfur sources. But I don’t remember who or where. In any case, that’s exactly who I had in mind.
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.but is the largest in the region, which also happens to be the region that some people think might be the origin of the vms, given the swallowtail merlons, etc., in fact one of the castles on the Swallowtail map is right there, near the sulfur spring. 

  This is actually an interesting coincidence. But you can find many similar lakes under the shape of a curved oval from VMS. 
  Or maybe it’s just a puddle after the rain?  
  

  (07-08-2026, 02:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would you believe that?

  I hold this position on VMS — I don’t believe in anything and I don’t declare anything to be true. I may find something convincing, but that doesn’t make it true. The anatomical interpretation is good because it applies to the entire section and allows for many parallels to be drawn.
  So my answer is both yes and no.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 07-08-2026, 08:25 PM

  (07-08-2026, 08:06 PM)Dana Scott Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Since the largest lady/nymph in the lower/brain lake is holding what appears to be a sponge,
  I am inclined to favor a balneological setting.

  The sponge might have been added to make this scene more like a scene of women bathing, rather than a brain...

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 07-08-2026, 09:09 PM

  (07-08-2026, 07:03 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well... If this were about balneology, there would be no need to encrypt it.
  These could indeed be lakes, but in that case, we don’t know the context. Perhaps the author sketched them to indicate where he hid his great treasures, or anything else, but definitely not balneology.
  
  I agree with you. For me it is a periplus that includes many different types of water and water bodies.
  
  Three semicircles and three spines — the only similarity here is in the quantity. This is a very forced comparison, and this “intestine” looks least of all like a coastline. Why not just draw three semicircles and leave an empty space behind them? That would make it clearer that it’s a coastline.
  
  I would agree with you there too, it is not the way I would draw it. I don't think it is supposed to clearly be coastline though. I think we are supposed to be confused. When I first started to investigate the idea many years ago, I found the Aegean Sea broken up into various smaller seas, and this part was called the Aegean, because it meant wavy. That is the part that stuck with me but I can't find the original link anymore. So to me that undulating shape is what said it to me, not so much the actual look of it, although I do see a resemblance (better in my minds eye though).
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, I don't think there are too many lakes shaped like this, especially at this size. Notice that if you flip the yellow thing into the water, that peninsula there is where the sulphur springs and castle are, and if you tip over the vms version to match the tilt in the photo, that it puts the area in a more comparative setting.

  Now this is more interesting and more convincing...
  
  Thank you for saying that! There does exist a 15th century drawing of the lake (circa 1440) so some did know what it looked like, plus there are mountains all around to see it from higher up. And they were dragging ships through the mountains into it at the time also. It is a little more oblique of an angle so doesn't look quite as long. This drawing shows Malcesine much closer to the north tip, kind of analogous to the vms placement of the nymph getting poked in the eye. I think that is to show that Riva del Garda and Malcesine are within sight of each other, especially if the view from Riva is higher up (like standing on the rock, I think that is where they built the tower a hundred years later that is now just ruins. The nymph getting poked also has weird broken legs, the castle there was built upon previous ruins of other castles in that location. It was the same family rebuilding there as at Sirmione. 
  
  
  
  Most likely, VMS was indeed not intended for a wide audience. But in that case, the clues are redundant, since we assume that the sender and the recipient of this manuscript knew what was written there, knew how to read it, and knew what to do with it.
  
  It may have been only for himself or those close. I call it a periplus because of how it is laid out, but from that you could also make maps, OPof the portolan style, if you had seen one before, especially if you use some of the imagery in quire 14, I think the Rosettes hold clues and the four people fountain drawing also seems to lay out some dimension, or at the very least, provides mnemonics to me that allow me to use it that way. But i am no geographer, everything inhave learned about geography i learned because the vms showed it to me (plus some various rabbit holes inspired by the searches along the way). Imagine using the vms to recreate things like maps or herbals at a whim, to use or sell to others. I think that was its purpose, a master copy that even if stolen could probably never be used by anyone else as such.
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For example, on F76v, why do you think the green water is drawn at an angle? Sloppiness? Because when I align the river motif at the top of the drawing with the actual river that i think it portrays, the analogous water body is situated at the same angle. That has to be more than coincidence, doesn't it?

  Maybe it’s a coincidence, maybe it’s not... Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about it
  
  Yes, I have to keep that stance too, but here is a diagram I made before I realized the lower diagram has its main body of water set right side up, while the top part is turned. I don't know what it is about 45 degree angles but they sure do like putting things, or parts of things, on the diagonal. But i did find out that most local drawings or maps of the area were usually bird's eye from the southwest. So that could explain some things. I will be making a better version of this in future with the upper lake being more full to show the differences better and the lower lake with its main body rotated 45 degrees clockwise to more resemble the drawing. It makes sense to me in terms of a) you cannot see the rest of the lake from a vantage point outside the main body due to the ithsmus and may be a compilation of maps or descriptions from differing vantage points, and b) normally one would view the smaller section from the south given the mountains. The same thing happens with the Caspian Sea, for seemingly the same reason, as far as I can reconcile the differences.
  
  Anyway, this is based on how these two waterbodies are situated when aligned with the river orientation as shown in the vms, with the waterbodies at the same scales but which is larger than they would be if drawn to scale with the river. There are two of the first one because I think it is talking about how it is an endorheic lake which means it has no outflow and evaporates. It is green because of the evaporation of salts that come from the ground water that flows into it from higher areas over the years, and is currently dried up completely but was full within most of our lifetimes. 
  
  As you can see, the angle is very close and so i think it may be why it is drawn at that angle, i.e. for precision 's sake, since the angle can be preserved in the transition to a map, and result in a very highly precise map, certainly in comparison to the generally available maps of that area that I have seen from this time period.
  
  
  
  
  

  (07-08-2026, 06:40 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But i see it as more of a congruent possibility, moreso because Ellie Velinska's identifications had worked out from foot to head when I put them in my page ordering, which i thought was also very coincidental.

  Unfortunately, I haven’t read her study. I suppose that if it’s about anatomy, then the sequence is completely different — from head to feet.

  
  I think much of it is probably here on ninja somewhere but probably more than a decade ago. I don't know if her website is still available. Yes it did work out backwards, and I have to say it did not make a complete human or anything, and I am still not convinced there is any anatomy in the vms, just allowing for the possibility.
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