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• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Jorge_Stolfi > 31-07-2026, 02:33 AM

  (30-07-2026, 10:22 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it's very strange to consider artists to be so stupid and "free."

  
  The people who drew the illustrations on luxury manuscripts were presumably chosen for their skill at producing nice-looking images.  For "technical" or "working" copies of manuscripts, the customers would not be picky on that point.  They would usually be able to gloss over artist mistakes, and figure out the original intent.  
  
  According to Wikipedia, the Screw of Archimedes was a popular device in in the Roman era, but fell out of use by the 3rd century.  Presumably it was displaced by the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or other devices.  So it is very likely that the artists who copied that "notebook" never saw one and ha d no idea of what it was.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 31-07-2026, 07:30 AM

  (31-07-2026, 02:33 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (30-07-2026, 10:22 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it's very strange to consider artists to be so stupid and "free."

  
  The people who drew the illustrations on luxury manuscripts were presumably chosen for their skill at producing nice-looking images.  For "technical" or "working" copies of manuscripts, the customers would not be picky on that point.  They would usually be able to gloss over artist mistakes, and figure out the original intent.  
  
  According to Wikipedia, the Screw of Archimedes was a popular device in in the Roman era, but fell out of use by the 3rd century.  Presumably it was displaced by the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or other devices.  So it is very likely that the artists who copied that "notebook" never saw one and ha d no idea of what it was.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  Perhaps, but only if we consider it in the context of other illustrations...

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Jorge_Stolfi > 31-07-2026, 10:47 AM

  (31-07-2026, 07:30 AM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps, but only if we consider it in the context of other illustrations...

  
  Indeed, that was not the only nonsensical drawing in that notebook.  I recall at least one other pipe with water spewing out from both ends.
  
  It occurred to me that those errors may be original.  Namely the author may have been a quack who pretended to be a Leonardo, and "sold" himself as such to the Rich and Powerful, but actually knew nothing of mechanics, hydraulics, weapons etc, and copied his sketches (with all those errors) from other books.  Like certain modern entrepreneurs.  
  
  But I don't  put much probability on that theory.  It would require assuming that the Rich and Powerful of the Middle Ages were as stupid as those of today...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 31-07-2026, 07:43 PM

  (30-07-2026, 10:22 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This means that the intestines are stylized as an Archimedean screw.

  
  I don't think so, the vms diagram is not a spiral, it is alternating layers of what appears to be a tube that has a semicircular motif on the edges that flow to the left, that then splits into two exits, if the flow is from top to bottom, which would be my guess. That's okay for your theory though too, since intestines are more layered than spiral also.
  
  If you think the tube is intestines, then I guess you would think the semicircle bits are the ligaments or fatty deposits, if they are on the outside, or maybe food if it is on the inside? How do you see it?
  
  However, that doesn't explain all the other tubes, and especially the other ones that have a similar motif. 
  
  What are the two exits to you? Are they the exits from the body or do they go on to other parts? I am not sure how you see the biological views coming together.
  
  

  Quote:I think it's very strange to consider artists to be so stupid and "free."

  
  I think, knowing you have a copy, means that perhaps you could write and ask the person or place who had the original, or someone else who may have a copy,  for another look at it, or another copy of the page (hopefully made by someone else), if you couldn't understand it, (i think it would be interesting to check one's copy against someone else's copy, just as we enjoy comparing them all now.) But the lack of notes correcting weird things might mean that these are just things to have? As opposed to things to read or refer to, to use and learn from.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 31-07-2026, 08:07 PM

  (31-07-2026, 07:43 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you think the tube is intestines, then I guess you would think the semicircle bits are the ligaments or fatty deposits, if they are on the outside, or maybe food if it is on the inside? How do you see it?

  A stylization of Archimedean pipes, or, as you said, the process of food or feces flowing through, which the author disguised with his favorite scales
  

  (31-07-2026, 07:43 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What are the two exits to you? Are they the exits from the body or do they go on to other parts?

  In any case, the lower part (where the liquid flows out) is most likely the anus.
  It is possible that the author could not detail all the details of the intestine, so he made it more schematic.

  (31-07-2026, 07:43 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think, knowing you have a copy, means that perhaps you could write and ask the person or place who had the original, or someone else who may have a copy, for another look at it, or another copy of the page (hopefully made by someone else), if you couldn't understand it, (i think it would be interesting to check one's copy against someone else's copy, just as we enjoy comparing them all now.) But the lack of notes correcting weird things might mean that these are just things to have? As opposed to things to read or refer to, to use and learn from.

  
  Perhaps... But in the case of VMS, it's done as an assumption, like, "Well, my theory is probably true, but the stupid scribes/authors/artists/alien forces have drawn it incorrectly."

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > 31-07-2026, 09:57 PM

  (31-07-2026, 08:07 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A stylization of Archimedean pipes, or, as you said, the process of food or feces flowing through, which the author disguised with his favorite scales

  I can see the analogous idea of things travelling through a pipe, but in no way is the screw pump the way things move in intestines, not to mention that it is not drawn that way in the vms.
  
  And the screw would be upside down, no?  
  
  

  (31-07-2026, 07:43 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What are the two exits to you? Are they the exits from the body or do they go on to other parts?

  In any case, the lower part (where the liquid flows out) is most likely the anus.
  It is possible that the author could not detail all the details of the intestine, so he made it more schematic. 
  
  

  (31-07-2026, 07:43 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I saw it the opposite way.
  
  

  Quote:I think, knowing you have a copy, means that perhaps you could write and ask the person or place who had the original, or someone else who may have a copy, for another look at it, or another copy of the page (hopefully made by someone else), if you couldn't understand it, (i think it would be interesting to check one's copy against someone else's copy, just as we enjoy comparing them all now.) But the lack of notes correcting weird things might mean that these are just things to have? As opposed to things to read or refer to, to use and learn from.

  
  Perhaps... But in the case of VMS, it's done as an assumption, like, "Well, my theory is probably true, but the stupid scribes/authors/artists/alien forces have drawn it incorrectly."

  
  I don't understand your response? I was saying that if you know there are different copies of a book you could compare it with the others to learn more, or see where something might have gotten off track (like leaving out an explanation for a diagram, drawing it differently, etc). In the case of the vms there is no known original or other copies so I don't understand "in the case of the vms". Are you saying theorists say things are drawn wrong in the vms in order to press their theory?

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > 31-07-2026, 10:01 PM

  (31-07-2026, 09:57 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see the analogous idea of things travelling through a pipe, but in no way is the screw pump the way things move in intestines, not to mention that it is not drawn that way in the vms.

  Well, perhaps the essence of the analogy is that the body is losing fluid, which is similar to the principle of Archimedean tubes.
  

  (31-07-2026, 09:57 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand your response? I was saying that if you know there are different copies of a book you could compare it with the others to learn more, or see where something might have gotten off track (like leaving out an explanation for a diagram, drawing it differently, etc). In the case of the vms there is no known original or other copies so I don't understand "in the case of the vms". Are you saying theorists say things are drawn wrong in the vms in order to press their theory?

  I want to clarify - do you mean that this image is just a very bad drawing of Archimedean tubes, or not?

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Linda > Yesterday, 12:48 AM

  (31-07-2026, 10:01 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (31-07-2026, 09:57 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see the analogous idea of things travelling through a pipe, but in no way is the screw pump the way things move in intestines, not to mention that it is not drawn that way in the vms.

  Well, perhaps the essence of the analogy is that the body is losing fluid, which is similar to the principle of Archimedean tubes.
  

  (31-07-2026, 09:57 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand your response? I was saying that if you know there are different copies of a book you could compare it with the others to learn more, or see where something might have gotten off track (like leaving out an explanation for a diagram, drawing it differently, etc). In the case of the vms there is no known original or other copies so I don't understand "in the case of the vms". Are you saying theorists say things are drawn wrong in the vms in order to press their theory?

  I want to clarify - do you mean that this image is just a very bad drawing of Archimedean tubes, or not?

  
  I do not see the vms diagram as resembling the Achimedes screw drawing at all, as there is no spiral to the vms image at all. It is simply curved upon itself, each level resting on the curve below it. Nor do I think the vms drawing resembles a corrected image thereof, since then you have a corkscrew inside the works. 
  
  Therefore I don't think there is any connection. 
  
  However, I can still see a more distant analogy of the movement of (water, let's say) through a water screw pump, as compared to through an intestine, if you remove the actual visuals and physics of it all, and concentrate only on the result of moving something from one place to another. 
  
  I guess I am saying I can see how you got there, but it doesn't seem to stem from the visual comparison, but more from the analogy of movement that the Archimedes screw might bring to mind.

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 05:58 AM

  (31-07-2026, 08:07 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think, knowing you have a copy, means that perhaps you could write and ask the person or place who had the original, or someone else who may have a copy, for another look at it, or another copy of the page (hopefully made by someone else), if you couldn't understand it, (i think it would be interesting to check one's copy against someone else's copy, just as we enjoy comparing them all now.)

  
  That may have been the ideal, but it would rarely be practical or worth the trouble.  When someone wanted a copy of some book, he would borrow it, hand it to a professional scribe. A couple weeks later the customer would get back the book with the copy, and would then return the former to its owner,  The copyist would not spend any time trying to understand the original.  The customer would not keep the original long enough to check the copy; and even if he saw some errors in the figures, correcting those errors would be hard and pointless.

  Quote:[quote]But the lack of notes correcting weird things might mean that these are just things to have? As opposed to things to read or refer to, to use and learn from.

  
  Indeed, then as of now, many books got bought or copied mainly "to have" rather than "to read". 
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Voynich's anatomy

  ololololo > Yesterday, 12:04 PM

  (Yesterday, 12:48 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not see the vms diagram as resembling the Achimedes screw drawing at all, as there is no spiral to the vms image at all. It is simply curved upon itself, each level resting on the curve below it. Nor do I think the vms drawing resembles a corrected image thereof, since then you have a corkscrew inside the works.

  I don't deny the lack of connection to Archimedes' screw and the coincidence. I'm not really sure if the author was trying to disguise the images of internal organs. Rather, he was making them implicit to us but clear to someone who knows what they're referring to.
  In any case, I didn't notice the similarity to the Archimedes screw...
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