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Why and how the text could be Bavarian
- Why and how the text could be Bavarian
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RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 05-02-2026, 06:25 PM
@ Pestrasti: I agree with you. I sometimes wonder if this can really be a proper text, but then I come across texts like this:
Extremely monotonous, very repetitive, and if you then encrypt it, you basically have Voynich...
"Dare nach neme man haberen gedrosgenan unde ungedrosgenan. unde adech. unde ebah. unde
uarn. unde emeizun. unde uueremüdun. unde heidernezzelun. unde
mache ein bahd unde bade in demo drie daga. unde nemo danne
gingibern. uuin. unde honak. unde dero uuiȥun uuidun loub. unde
kirseboumes loub. unde phirsihboumes loub. unde salbeiun. unde
rutun. unde storchessnabel. unde berehtram. unde mideuuirz.⁴
iegeliches einero unzun geuuiht. unde mache ein drank. unde drinke
daz in demo uuarmen bade. so uuirð es imo büz."
Thats a short excerpt from:
Die kleineren althochdeutschen Sprachdenkmäler (The smaller Old High German linguistic monuments)
Gegen Gicht "Against Gout".
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Page 384f
Translated from modern normal German with deepl:
Then take oats, threshed and unthreshed, and adech, and ebah, and uarn, and emeizun, and wormwood, and heath nettles, and make a bath and bathe in it for three days. Then take ginger, wine, and honey, and white willow leaves, and cherry tree leaves, and peach tree leaves, and sage, and rue, and cranesbill, and bertram, and midewurz: one ounce of each. Make a potion and drink it in the warm bath; this will make him better. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
Jorge_Stolfi > 07-02-2026, 03:20 PM
(04-02-2026, 07:00 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, due to a structure similar to Bavarian, I dont believe it is a hoax. But of course, I cannot rule it out yet.
@JoJo, as you may know I have my own theory for the underlying language, and thus I do not think it is Bavarian. But you definitely have a strong case. If the underlying language was "European" (including Arabic, Hebrew, and Turkish), it would have to be Bavarian, because of the structure of the words.
But since I am here, let me post this link that seems to be a good 15-minute introduction to the language. What do you think of it?
Langfocus:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I first met Bavarian through this silly song
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which I even tried to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with the help of the Internet.
Some years ago I also happened to work on the Wikipedia article on "Servus" which is used in Croatian as well as in Serbian, and may be connected to the Italian "ciao" througn venetian "stʃiavo" or "s-ciavo". I contributed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in German?), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in Bavarian?) and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in Croatian?)... But needless to say I can't understand a word of either.
And Bavarian also makes a cameo appearance in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I wrote a few years ago. But sadly you will miss all the jokes in there, unless you happen to have followed closely the bitcoin scene in 2014 or so...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 07-02-2026, 06:16 PM
@ Stolfi Thank u
I also think that if it has to be European, then Bavarian is definitely way ahead.
But I think it will be even more impressive. I'm working on a cipher that makes this clear, but I'm stuck because I have so little time. But it's coming soon...
(07-02-2026, 03:20 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But since I am here, let me post this link that seems to be a good 15-minute introduction to the language. What do you think of it?
It is a brief but interesting overview of some of the peculiarities. However, this concerns modern Bavarian, which is quite different from the medieval version.
(07-02-2026, 03:20 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.and may be connected to the Italian "ciao" througn venetian "stʃiavo" or "s-ciavo"
“Servus” is originally comes from Latin:
servus = servant, slave
In Roman times, it was actually a kind of polite/submissive greeting. “I am your servant.”
In Old Bavaria and the surrounding area, it became a kind of ritual politeness—and then, over time, a completely normal greeting. Hardly anyone thinks about its actual origin anymore.
I believe that in English there is the word “sincerely,” which also may have something to do with servants in its origin... -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 07-02-2026, 07:03 PM
(07-02-2026, 06:16 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Old Bavaria and the surrounding area, it became a kind of ritual politeness—and then, over time, a completely normal greeting. Hardly anyone thinks about its actual origin anymore.
I believe that in English there is the word “sincerely,” which also may have something to do with servants in its origin...
This is unrelated, but "I am your servant" is a very common expression used also in Persian even today.
I strongly recommend considering a cipher technique (among others) of adding/substituting a phonetic 't' (te, et, at, ta, to, ot, ...., or another consonant depending on textual or visual context), when an 'a' is surrounded, or even just preceded or proceeded by another vowel). This is just something I found implied in (my) Botrus solution possibility.
I think also focusing image labels where images are relatively identifiable can bear better fruit.
I also think that Bavarian can be a very important lead but I think it is important to consider that it could be used alongside Latin, German, or any local dialects the author (in my view Countess Margaret) could have known, but done in a way that follows the Bavarian style, perhaps.
From my research, I have found that as a member of her dynasty, she could have spoken Tyrolean Bavarian (South Bavarian) German dialect, Italian (Venetian/Lombard dialects, since her territory included Trentino region), Ladin since it was widely spoken in her region, as well as formal courtly "Middle High German" (whatever that means, I don't know, but she used lawyers a lot for her divorce/marriage and other needs). I have even found that because of her Gorizia lineage, she could have had exposure to Slovenian.
As I will explain later, she had every reason to make her book as difficult to decipher as possible given the circumstances in which she lived, surrounded by mortal enemies throughout her life.
I know nothing about these languages, but you and forum members who know, have a very important task ahead of you that can bear significant fruit. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 07-02-2026, 07:03 PM
(07-02-2026, 06:16 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Old Bavaria and the surrounding area, it became a kind of ritual politeness—and then, over time, a completely normal greeting. Hardly anyone thinks about its actual origin anymore.
I believe that in English there is the word “sincerely,” which also may have something to do with servants in its origin...
This is unrelated, but "I am your servant" is a very common expression used also in Persian even today.
I strongly recommend considering a cipher technique (among others) of adding/substituting a phonetic 't' (te, et, at, ta, to, ot, ...., or another consonant depending on textual or visual context), when an 'a' is surrounded, or even just preceded or proceeded by another vowel). This is just something I found implied in (my) Botrus solution possibility.
I think also focusing image labels where images are relatively identifiable can bear better fruit.
I also think that Bavarian can be a very important lead but I think it is important to consider that it could be used alongside Latin, German, or any local dialects the author (in my view Countess Margaret) could have known, but done in a way that follows the Bavarian style, perhaps.
From my research, I have found that as a member of her dynasty, she could have spoken Tyrolean Bavarian (South Bavarian) German dialect, Italian (Venetian/Lombard dialects, since her territory included Trentino region), Ladin since it was widely spoken in her region, as well as formal courtly "Middle High German" (whatever that means, I don't know, but she used lawyers a lot for her divorce/marriage and other needs). I have even found that because of her Gorizia lineage, she could have had exposure to Slovenian.
As I will explain later, she had every reason to make her book as difficult to decipher as possible given the circumstances in which she lived, surrounded by mortal enemies throughout her life.
I know nothing about these languages, but you and forum members who know, have a very important task ahead of you that can bear significant fruit. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
tavie > 07-02-2026, 09:06 PM
Hi Behrooz. We have a one thread per theory rule in this forum. Please keep posts about your authorship theory and its implications to your own thread. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 07-02-2026, 09:09 PM
My sincere apologies. I completely forgot about the rule. Please move it to my thread, Tavie, if it is the best to do so. I did not do so intentionally at all. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 09-02-2026, 05:52 PM
Part 3: A simple cipher without complex positional dependencies.
As I said, my goal here is not to offer a solution, but to demonstrate what is possible and the consequences of doing so. The reason I created my own cipher based on the VMS is so that one can better understand the problems an author with such a cipher would have encountered if the basis were Bavarian (Bairisch). It also explains why it would be so difficult to translate such a cipher back. I'm currently working on further development, but as I said, it will take some time.
To achieve this, I will present one of my first serious cipher attempts, as far as possible.
Assumptions:
1. Daiin = Dann/Und (Then/And)
2. Aiin = ain = ein (a/one).
3. Präfix: 'o' at the beginning simply represents articles and similar connecting words. (der/die/das u.a)
4. qo = multiple articles and connecting words. (Example: das da /that there)
We will take the first sentence from the piece I introduced above:
'Das sey dann, das da Mensch zelang blüat, un dassa krank wert, do sollt'm als helfn' (And if the human bleeds too long and thereby becomes sick, then one should help him).
Cipher: (cipher replacements are written in bold): 'Osey daiin qoMensch zelang bluät, daiin qokrank wert, osoltm ohelfn.' (apostrophe removed)
5. The gallows:
k k = d / t / z / tz
t t = k / g
p p = P/B
f f = f/v/w
The consonants listed here are often interchanged in Bavarian, meaning they are nearly “free" in their group
The bench gallows are consonant clusters, such as pf (pferd = horse), which would then be cipherd. Pf = cph
For now all Gallows are only used at the beginning of a word or directly behind the attached article.
= 'Osey daiin qoMensch kelang cphuät, daiin qotrank fert, osoltm ohelfn.'
6. ch/sh ch/sh
Ch = Nasal slot = n/m
Sh = hissing slot (Zischslaut) = s/z/sch/ts/ch.
'Oshey daiin qochechsh kelang cphuät, daiin qotrachk fert, osholtm ohelfn.'
7. Y pulls a vowel "e" to the back. Unless it is already at the back, Y also stands for Y.
Oshey daiin qochchshy klachgy cphuät, daiin qotrachk frty, osholtm ohlfny
8. Vowel system
a = a
o/u → o (neutral carrier).
i remains i.
ee = au
ii = n / eu (??)
The umlauts (ä, ü, ö) become normal letters (a, u, o) and are then treated according to the rules.
Oshey daiin qochchshy klachgy cphoat, daiin qotrachkfrty, osholtm ohlfny
9. Eva d d stands for d/t/s/z at the end of a word, but only at the beginning if it has not already been replaced by a Gallow.
Oshey daiin qochchshy klachgy cphoad, daiin qotrachk frdy, osholdm ohlfny
10 If a word becomes too long due to qo (from eight letters onwards), it is separated (probably marked, but we will leave that out here) so that it is not obvious that qo is an attached article. The separation occurs after the first vowel in the origin word.
Oshey daiin qoch chshy klachgy cphoad, daiin qotrachk frdy, osholdm ohlfny
Oshey daiin qoch chshy klachgy cphoad, daiin qotrachk frdy, osholdm ohlfny
Now we have a sentence that at least remotely resembles the Voynich manuscript. The monotony and word similarities are still missing, but there are already some similarities.
Let's leave it at that for now. Of course, not all the letters have been deciphered yet, and some of the letters in the EVA transcription have not yet been used. One could discuss a few points, such as whether 'qotrachk' also needs to be separated. What about the k, which is not a Gallow here at the end? And what about other things? However, this is not about creating the perfect cipher (its a first look), but rather something else.
The problem is that the back-translation is already difficult.
In Oshey O, Article Shey Sh, the letters s, z, sch, ts and ch can all be represented by the same symbol. This leaves the following possibilities: sey, zey, schey, tsey and chey. There are now two possible meanings: 'sey' = 'sei' (be) and 'schey' = 'Scheu' (shyness). So, 'that be' or 'the shyness' (shyness is an adjective in dialect usage and does not come first, so 'shey'). 'Das shey' (that be) cannot have 'and' after it, so 'then' (dann) = 'Das sey dann' (that be then).
Qoch chshy qo: another article consisting of two short words. Sch = m/n, a single letter. The word was separated because of the article and must be merged. Schchshy: behind m either an M or a vowel stands. The vowel y = e must therefore be pulled forward behind the m.
Schechshy: now we have M/n; e; M/n; s/z/sch/ts/ch.
Of course, 'Mensch' (human) immediately comes to mind, but it could also mean 'nemts' ('take it'). With the article, it is more likely to be a noun. So Mensch. But which article stands before it? 'Das sey X (X is a variable) der Mensch' does not clearly reveal whether it is 'das sey dass der Mensch' (that be, that the human) or 'von dem Menschen' (of the human). So we have to wait and see how the sentence develops.
A klachgy d/t/z/tz and then an l should actually stand here, but since it is not there, a vowel must be shifted to the back and indeed the y stands there. The ch also becomes a nasal sound. So: Kelachg = d/t/z/tz; e; l; a; n.
There are two possibilities:
zelan = zu lang (too long)
zelan = zählen (count) It's clear here.
Cphoad: here we have the bench gallows = PX (X is a variable); o/u; a; d/t/s/z.
Two possibilities: Bluat/Pluat = Blut (blood); Pfoad = Hemd (shirt).
This results in two possibilities: 'Das sey, dass der Mensch zelang pluat' (That be, that the human bleeds too long) and 'Das sey, vom dem Mensch zelang Hemd' (That be, of the human too long shirt). The first version is clearly correct here, but how knows!!!
So we have: 'Das sey, dass der Mensch zelang pluat' = 'daiin' / 'und' (then/and).
Qotrachk again with a double article = 'qo'. 'Remains trachk' = 't' = 'g/k' = 'rank' = 'krank' (sick) (this was not yet correctly deciphered). In this context/dialect usage, 'krank' is a verb and there is no article before it. So the qo here must encode something else. (Here the cipher tilts a bit, but I have only named a prefix so far). If it is not an article, then in German, it must almost certainly be the 'dass' (that) and the 'und' (and) before a verb.
That is to say, the person is sick for a long time, and then X (a variable for a short word) becomes fert, meaning 'becomes'. With that, it would be clear: 'Das sey, dass der Mensch zelang pluat und dass er krank wert.'
I'll stop here. Nevertheless, this special cipher can be translated back comparatively easily. However, the more cipher steps I add, the more difficult it becomes. Additionally, there are more and more possible ambiguities that would need to be deduced from the context. The double short words of the qo would be especially difficult. So, u have to know the kontext! And, u have to know the dialect....
Summary:
What I wanted to show: It is possible to develop a cipher that creates a certain similarity to the VMS. (As I said, monotony and repetition are lacking, but this could also be due to the underlying source text, as I explained above.)
The source text i used is not pure Bavarian, but rather a mixture of Bavarian and Middle High German, as was common at the time. Scholars who wrote Books were familiar with Middle High German. Assuming a strong Bavarian dialect that was written as it was spoken would make it very difficult, if not impossible, to find the right words from such a cipher.
Let's take the two ambiguous words: There are possible spellings for
'Blut' (blood): Pluat, Pluad, Pluot, Pluod, Pluet, Plued, Plut, Bluot and Bluat, and these are probably not even all of them.
If we then consider the variants for
'Hemd' (shirt): Pfoad, Pfoat, Pfaid, Pfait, Pfayt, Pheit, Pfeit,
Then I think it becomes clearer why I wrote that it might not be possible to translate this cipher back without knowing the exact dialect. This could also explain why none of the cryptologists has been able to translate the text so far.
---------------
That's enough for today. More will follow later, possibly much later, as it's carnival season here in Germany and I'll be going on vacation at some point.
But I will respond to questions, criticism, and opinions... -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 10-02-2026, 06:18 AM
I don't think it has yet become sufficiently clear what this relatively simple encryption, which is based on 15th-century cipher systems, actually means.
If entire consonant clusters are treated as single units – which is largely unproblematic in Bavarian, since such clusters are already used flexibly and variably in the spoken language – this alone has a noticeable effect on entropy. This effect increases further when articles and other function words are compressed into a small number of prefix clitics (as in the case of qo and o): the predictability of symbol sequences necessarily rises sharply.
If this is combined with vowel neutralisation (e.g. u/o/e → o), a vowel shift in which e is displaced to word-final y, and with other symbols no longer representing single sounds but entire letter or sound groups, the system as a whole begins to appear highly regular and strongly constrained from the outside – regardless of how “normal” the underlying target text may be.
An important point here is that spoken Bavarian and related Upper German dialects already show a strong tendency towards reduction (apocope, syncope, cliticisation). That means that if the underlying text – the input to the cipher, so to speak – already produces many short, highly compressed word forms (often very short, sometimes even monosyllabic), this further amplifies the effects described above.
If, in addition, attached articles are concealed at the surface level by a simple and mechanically explainable rule (for example: if a preceding qo would make a word too long, the word is split in order to prevent qo from being immediately recognisable as an article), the word-length distribution shifts even further towards the profile observed in the Voynich Manuscript.
Conclusion:
It follows that low entropy and short word lengths (with positive autocorrelation) are not sufficient arguments for excluding a European language as the input of the Voynich text. They are fully compatible with a deterministic production system that strongly compresses and formally constrains a European (Bavarian) target text. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 10-02-2026, 07:42 AM
I am asking this question because I have not yet studied Sukhotin's analysis in depth. Considering that this encoding reduces typical Bavarian vowel combinations to vowel repetition (e.g. ee = oa/ua and ii = ui/eu), combines other vowels (o/u → o), shifts the ‘e’ at the end of the word to a “y” and treats consonant clusters as single units – could this phonetic filtering explain the ‘artificial’ results that Sukhotin analyses typically deliver for the VMS, too?