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Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
- Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
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RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > Yesterday, 01:37 AM
(27-01-2026, 10:00 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just weighing in that this manuscript page is very consistent with what we would expect from the current generation of LLM's (probably Gemini, in this case). Unfortunately, anyone with a computer can now make these things with the click of a button, so expect to see more of them...
I think it could happen both ways, so, yes, more AI/fakes can be showing up, but also genuine ones may also appear, due to increased digitization of old manuscripts. I would not rule out the latter entirely.
I did some testing for that page. Even AI fake testers like sightengine (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) have not perfect their art. The two fake samples forum members offered passed as not fake with flying colors, yet the text (without margins) of the candidate page is treated as not AI generated.
However, when the overall page is tested, it is flagged as 85-89% AI generated (depending on the resolution tested), so somehow the margins of that page gave it away as AI generated, and it seems it was generated at MidJourney (according to the test).
When I tested the page without the text (I blanked it out), including just the margin, it was flagged as AI generated.
I think the two forum sample fakes passed as not fake because they were photoshop or manual fakes. Can Aga Tentakulus and oshfdk please confirm if they used AI for their fake sampling? (if they used AI, then the sightengine tester is not good at its job and we need to be skeptical about the testing I did with that site). I am interested to know why their fakes passed the sightengine test as not fake. (Side note: It seems that AI patterns can be detected even if one takes a screenshot of the pages for testing).
I am sharing the above so that we can find ways of immediately testing the fakes when they come up next. I am also now inclined to regard that page as AI generated, unless proven otherwise.
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RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
oshfdk > Yesterday, 09:07 AM
(Yesterday, 01:37 AM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can Aga Tentakulus and oshfdk please confirm if they used AI for their fake sampling? (if they used AI, then the sightengine tester is not good at its job and we need to be skeptical about the testing I did with that site). I am interested to know why their fakes passed the sightengine test as not fake.
Mine was AI-generated (Google Nano Banana specifically). I think Aga Tentakulus' point was that a fake can just as easily be created using a piece of parchment or parchment-like paper and a pen, so I assume that picture was just that - an actual piece of parchment with some Voynichese written on it. -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
Aga Tentakulus > Yesterday, 09:14 AM
As far as I'm concerned, it wasn't AI.
It was just a joke somewhere.
I've had it since 2015 or even longer. -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
Ruby Novacna > Yesterday, 10:04 AM
Before embarking on a complicated analysis of the image, ask yourself where this puzzle came from.
Someone claims that Google offered them an image without any reference. How many times has that happened to you personally?
P.S. By the way, Google Lens alone already shows you the pasted text areas. -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 11 hours ago
Thanks oshfdk and Aga Tentakulus for letting me know about your trial came from.
Ruby Novacna, thanks for your feedback. I have not used Google lens (I checked in photoshop for any such lines before but did not see any). If it is not too much of a trouble, if you copy an image for what you see that will help and finalize this inquiry. I agree that (as I had said before) the person who claimed it not following it up is odd. Perhaps he will explain more. There can be many reasons for why he is not doing so.
It seems the online tools are not themselves reliable in confirming AI/fake images (as they themselves admit "Results can be inaccurate ...").
I still will not rule out the possibility that new digitizations of old manuscript may find other manuscripts written using the VM "letters"—which is why I think it is more scientific to rule out a fake by verifiable methods than just simply saying it looks like it is. That is the main lesson of this matter for me. -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 8 hours ago
(9 hours ago)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11 hours ago)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have not used Google lens
Do it now, it's simple and informative.
Thanks, but I am not interested in doing so. I think you made a claim that will be helpful for me and others to show a proof for. So, I will leave it up to you to do so. Your perception of what is a clue can be different from others doing the same. Just because you say it is, does not work for me, for the same reason others doing fake example just did not work; it is neither reasonable, nor scientific, as a way of proving or disproving a claim. I need to see it to believe it. I am sure, however, that you can do so and help me put aside this matter. I look forward to it. -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
Ruby Novacna > 6 hours ago
(8 hours ago)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your perception of what is a clue can be different from others doing the same. Just because you say it is, does not work for me,
Trying to find information about an image posted online is like a middle school test. I don't know what kind of proof you're expecting. The image posted on Facebook is clearly a joke; if you want to deal with this childish nonsense, good luck! -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 6 hours ago
(Yesterday, 10:04 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Before embarking on a complicated analysis of the image, ask yourself where this puzzle came from.
Someone claims that Google offered them an image without any reference. How many times has that happened to you personally?
P.S. By the way, Google Lens alone already shows you the pasted text areas.
(6 hours ago)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(8 hours ago)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your perception of what is a clue can be different from others doing the same. Just because you say it is, does not work for me,
Trying to find information about an image posted online is like a middle school test. I don't know what kind of proof you're expecting. The image posted on Facebook is clearly a joke; if you want to deal with this childish nonsense, good luck!
Thanks. As far I am concerned you have failed to prove your point and are not forthcoming with evidence. Instead you are engaging in using "childish nonsense" language to avoid offering a simple evidence, which would have required simply clipping the image you had seen of the alleged "pasted text areas" so that we could all benefit from your evidence. I sincerely do wish you can prove your point as I am open to accepting your evidence if offered. Last time you asked me for clarification, I spent good time offering it. Is it that difficult to reciprocate in the interest of proving even your own point? -
RE: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 51 minutes ago
In this post I will elaborate more on what I called “tilt” in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chart as mentioned in a previous post, one that can alternatively be called the “10 o’clock” spot in the Voynich manuscript, one that I think can be regarded as a breadcrumb left by its author.
There is something very interesting going on as a pattern in the Voynich manuscript, which many of you have observed and commented on from differing points of view on this forum. I will try to list them with images below as a reminder, and will later elaborate on their possible interpretive significance.
In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chart, we see a tilt that can be observed by way of a faint line on the 10 o’clock line radius line. Jorge_Stolfi and I were discussing it in an earlier post, and I was suggesting that it is likely the scribe begun populating the chart’s circles from there because it was important for making sure that point is marked at the 10 o’clock spot. I am using 10 not 10:30 (which is close to it, for an hour marker in a watch) or anything else for simplicity of reference sake. I am fine with 10 o’clock as a marker.
In the f68r3 chart, we find the now famous Pleiades 7-stars on that spot, with most likely Aldebaran (follower) behind it, and an arrow drawn from Pleiades to the center of the chart. At this point, I won’t elaborate on this, since I want first just to give a sense of the pattern across the VM.
In the f70v1 first Aries chart, which is populated by the nude nymphs, the ram is eating greens on the 10 o’clock spot. Technically, we should note that Aries is about March 21-April 19. So, she may be capturing the first part of the April in this chart to make sure that month is fully covered for April, due to certain significance April has for her.
In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. second Aries (April) chart, which is populated by the clothed people, the ram is also eating greens on that spot. R. Sale had interesting things to say about the coat of arms patterns of the women around the 10 0’clock spot, to which I will return later. She is still capturing the first part of the April (April 1 - 19) in this chart, although Aries begins, of course, from March 21. (side note: about the possible significance of two rows of people in the astrological charts one can speculate, but I think it has to do with the circles of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in my view) geomantic chart).
In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. first Taurus (April 20-May 20) chart, we find the bull is eating grass on the same spot. Although the readable marking for this chart says “May,” I think the significance of this Zodiac for her is that the latter part of April falls into this Zodiac month (unfortunately the later marginalia naming has not helped with noting the two-month span of the Zodiac charts in the VM). In other words, the month of April explains, in my view, why the Aries and Taurus months are shared in two charts for each. People in this chart are clothed.
In the f72r1 chart, the second Taurus chart (April 20-May 20) is given. Again, the bull is eating grass on the 10 o’clock spot. The nymphs are nude in this chart.
In f72r2 chart, for June and the Gemini chart, a nymph has both hands spread. Although not unique (another one has the same pose at about 2 o’clock), that seems significant to me.
In f72r3 chart for Cancer, all the nymphs are facing right, but there is only one nymph facing left at 10 o'clock (opposite direction) and seems sad-looking, but hard to tell re. the latter. (I did not see this reverse pose of that nymph mentioned in ReneZ information page for that chart on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I am sure others have spotted it by now) (side note: I think there is also a typo error in his page for Sagittarius, Sagittarius is typed Scorpius on the fourth line from the bottom, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. so he may like to correct it).
In f72v2 chart for Virgo (marked September), the center figure is holding the star on that 10 o’clock spot.
In f72v3 chart for Leo, the lion’s head is on that spot and licking his paws there.
And in Rosetta foldout page, in the top right chart, we find one of the most prominent and visible castles on the same 10 o’clock spot.
Regarding You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the heraldy/coat of arms, R. Sale once observed (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.): “The matter of the artist's intentional obfuscation becomes clear when the existence of dualistic construction becomes evident - specifically regarding the orientation of the blue stripes when viewed from a more dominant, radial perspective or a less evident, isolated perspective, when it is the more hidden perspective that corresponds with historical events and various other aspects of confirmation built into the structure of the White Aries illustration. Considering that these facts were historical at the time of the VMs C-14 dates, reveals that the artist was aware of some fairly exclusive information in relation to Catholic church history and tradition and that s/he chose to disguise it.”
I am inclined also to believe that the pattern I have described above is offering a breadcrumb to the identity of the author of the manuscript, or in R. Sale’s words we have some “intentional obfuscation” going on here, for a reason we will need to later explain (amid the broader mystery of the Voynich manuscript, of course; however, we need to keep in mind that perhaps some of the now lost/removed pages of the manuscript may have included some information about that identity in a more evident way, but now, we are finding traces of it that seem more mysterious to us).
This brings me to the question of what the surviving breadcrumbs are telling us about some information about the now lost astrological charts. Those who removed them may have thought they have gotten rid of the most visible ones, suppressing her identity, but I think they may not have realized that some of the remaining information can allow us to some extent “reverse engineer” some of the most important features of the astrological charts of the author of the VM.
In my view a key breadcrumb explaining a key feature of her astrological chart is given in the Pleiades chart on f68r. I think the curvy arrow drawn from the cluster to the center of the chart representing the Moon is pointing to an occultation of the Pleiades by the Moon. See the picture below about how it can appear in the sky (from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Pleiades and its follower Aldebaran have for millennia been observed in Taurus. That is not unique to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chart, and one would expect them in any chart. What is unique and interpretatively significant is that it is falling at the 10 o’clock spot on the border of the 11th and 12th house, with the Aldebaran falling in the 12th house. Below is a 12-house chart I have superimposed with that chart. Since the VM charts are not super precise, it is hard to tell if the author meant the whole cluster to fall in the 12th house, or more on the cusp, but at least one of them does on the cusp, and even being close to the border of 11th/12th is very significant astrologically, and Aldebaran falling in the 12th house is also very important.
The 12th house was and still is associated with meanings of secrecy, illness, hidden enemies, suffering, secret sadness, prisons (generally speaking), and self-undoing, and 11th house is associated with alliances, hopes, and friends and support. The occultation of the Pleiades by the Moon on the border of 11th/12th with Aldebaran in the 12th house has very important astrological implications. If the author was curious about her chart from childhood and had been told about that feature, she may have even defined or interpreted the spiritual meaning and purpose of her life as being portrayed by the features of her birth chart. She therefore paid very close attention to her chart and learned all that she could about it.
Pleiades is metaphorically associated with cluster of grapes, but also was associated since ancient times with the “seven sisters,” one being most visible and one least visible (the “lost sister”). The lost sister is very sad, because she feels she was mis-married to a mortal she did not love and was deeply sorrowed about it. There are different myths about their story, but one of the ways they can be interpreted is that they were daughters of Atlas and sea-nymph Pleione.
Without going into the details, one of the ways the Christian medieval Europe tried to accommodate them from their pagan meanings was to “baptize” them. I think the balneological section of the Voynich manuscript is, from one interpretive angle (though can have other, even more mundane fertility or pregnancy, meanings) a process of their baptism. I think the fact that there are no children depicted in the VM, at least in the surviving parts, suggests fertility and pregnancy, or related sexuality, were not the main, but a secondary aspect of the manuscript’s purpose.
In the first image of the balneological section, we find “seven sisters” (one of them on the sideline, plus an eight completely separate in a bath tub, perhaps identifying a sister the author also has on earth), descending to earth (the curvy membrane borders, not sure what you call them, I think signified heavenly realm in medieval religious art).
But they all can be representing different selves of our author and the experience she is depicting. The sisters are populating, with more sisters joining them, as if expanding their sisterhood community. All the bathing may not be about fertility or pregnancy per se (though they can’t be entirely ruled out) but about cleaning and purifying themselves through baptism of their body and soul. After they did, the last page of the balneological section again depicts them in fewer numbers, 7-8. I think on this page, they are ascending back to the heavens, now having accomplished their mission (the top group has seven sisters again).
The significance of Pleiades and Aldebaran being where they are in her chart is that in the deepest secrecy of her astrological self-understanding at the time, she regarded herself as having a secret spiritual and public mission, or life trouble, to perform or deal with, being surrounded with secret enemies which required her to be vigilant throughout her life. The enemies may as well explain the extreme secrecy in which she authored her legacy manuscript, and how she planned its transfer to a more durable vellum posthumously. Highly intelligent, given the Royal star Aldebaran star in her 12th house, she faced serious challenges in life while maintaining her honor despite her enemies. She stood like an Aries ram or Taurus bull on her own grounds and for what she believed in, since any compromise would have meant a sudden downfall (as it is implied in Aldebaran being in the 12th house). Despite the health and personal losses she suffered in terms of her legacy, the Voynich manuscript served as conveying her insights to future generations.
She had to live a double life of powerful position publicly while maintaining deep spiritual secrecy, being educated to do her own research about healing matters for herself and loved ones, about health matters as well as fertility and legacy because her legacy depended on it, and about spiritual salvation despite animosity she faced from the men-run official church, trying to understand the meaning of her life in a broader context of her astrological chart features, most of which we do not (yet) know, but traces of which we can find throughout the Voynich manuscript.
I believe she was born in the month of April, and four periods of her life are depicted in the chart on f85r2. All four figures are of the same person. She is the author of the Voynich manuscript.