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Why and how the text could be Bavarian
- Why and how the text could be Bavarian
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RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
dashstofsk > 08-06-2026, 07:51 AM
(07-06-2026, 07:01 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it is a clear structural model that, with very simple and few assumptions, explains a large part of the statistical peculiarities
May I jump into this debate and challenge you to generate with your method an IVTFF file of ~7000 words and ~20 pages. Only when this is done will we all be able to judge how structurally close your text comes to the VMS. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 08-06-2026, 08:07 AM
It’s obviously way too early for such a big test! I’ve only just figured out the structure. Right now, I’ve got maybe a few small letters and sequences. I'd have to make too many unconfirmed assumptions, as shown in the previous test. I actually thought I'd made that clear enough. And it would take me weeks to do it!
And as explained above, that wouldn't prove anything, because it would be a circular test.
4. One point you have clearly overlooked is this: at the level of argument you are using, even producing 200 pages would not prove the model. The VMS is clearly based on a slot-like system, as Stolfi has shown. If one simply maps frequent plaintext elements onto frequent Voynich glyphs, bigrams, and trigrams within that slot system, a Voynich-like surface will inevitably emerge. Treating that as proof would be circular.
Ultimately - and I think we can all agree on this - the only proof is plain text that produces clear and coherent sentences, not this Eisegesis nonsense... And that’s what I’ll be working toward, but it could still take months.
But even if it isn’t MHD/FHND, this structure is present in the text and, with the simplest assumptions, explains a great deal of the statistical anomalies. It also proves that VMS can, at least theoretically, be a language, despite these anomalies, and that alone refutes the part of the hoax theory that claims VMS cannot be a language. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
Aga Tentakulus > 08-06-2026, 08:34 AM
If you’re just looking for a structure, you’ll find it everywhere. Ladin, for example, is one such language.
Historically speaking, this is actually understandable.
Around 1400, German was banned in order to establish it as the official language in the region. Later, it was the Italians who sought to establish Italian as the official language. And today, it is taught again in schools. Whatever the VM has to offer probably comes from this region. The languages are Rhaetian, Ladin, Friulian, Venetian, Bavarian, Italian, and Slavic.
N dé ch‘al ê jü da doman ćina da sëra ala ćiacia, ne se ciafâl te n iade nia plü le tru da jì a ćiasa. Stanch dal iade, s‘àl sentè sot n lëgn y s‘à indormedì. Tl som ti él aparì na bela jona amez n pre de ciüfs bi blanć; ël instës tignî tles mans n smaz de ciüfs dal tonn por i scinché ala möta, y denant che chësta s‘un jiss, ti àra cuntè che ara ê la fia dl re dla löna. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
oshfdk > 08-06-2026, 08:55 AM
(08-06-2026, 08:07 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.4. One point you have clearly overlooked is this: at the level of argument you are using, even producing 200 pages would not prove the model. The VMS is clearly based on a slot-like system, as Stolfi has shown. If one simply maps frequent plaintext elements onto frequent Voynich glyphs, bigrams, and trigrams within that slot system, a Voynich-like surface will inevitably emerge. Treating that as proof would be circular.
Of course the positive result won't prove anything other than statistical compatibility between this model and Voynichese. However, I'm not even sure this positive result is achievable with this model. There is huge difference between "Voynich-like surface" (whatever this even means) and matching a set of statistical properties. I'm confused why you claim that the model "fits remarkably well into the statistical peculiarities of the VMS", while showing no evidence of this so far and, as far as I understand, you haven't actually computed the statistical properties of the model. Or it would be trivial for you to publish the data you used. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
oshfdk > 08-06-2026, 12:38 PM
(08-06-2026, 12:21 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here's what I meant...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As far as I understand, that post explains qualitatively how different aspects of the model could produce different features of the manuscript, but this is not evidence that the model as a whole would produce the right set of features when applied to an actual text. The only way to find out is to run an actual test, until then it's not at all obvious that this model is statistically compatible with Voynichese. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 08-06-2026, 01:41 PM
Oh man... are the English translations really that bad???
I’ll write it one more time, but this is the last time: I don’t have a solution yet! And there's no proof, as I've pointed out time and again. However, this model shows that language could underlie the VMS. And it fits well with the structural features of the VMS that I mentioned in the post. That’s all I’ve ever claimed.
Let’s just wait and see—as soon as I have the plain text, it will become clear... -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 08-06-2026, 10:29 PM
What I really don't understand, though, is why people don't realize that simply by interpreting the VMS differently—where spaces are not word boundaries but rather delimit vowel bigrams, combined with the well-known slot system—a completely natural flow of language suddenly emerges, one that also fits perfectly with most of the structural features of the VMS.
That's a truly fascinating structure, even though I don't have a solution yet, of course...
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RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
oshfdk > 08-06-2026, 10:49 PM
(08-06-2026, 10:29 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I really don't understand, though, is why people don't realize that simply by interpreting the VMS differently—where spaces are not word boundaries but rather delimit vowel bigrams, combined with the well-known slot system—a completely natural flow of language suddenly emerges, one that also fits perfectly with most of the structural features of the VMS.
Because this is not true? If you take a larger text and try to encode it this way, most likely the structural fit will disappear quickly. You can easily prove me wrong on this one, if you show how a long plaintext can be converted to plausible Voynichese using this method.
The idea that word ending and beginning combinations represent some characters is an old one. An example, likely not the first one chronologically: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. "...the authors might have continued the alchemical pattern by combining the last letter of one word with the first letter of the next. Thus the spaces between would contain a binary of 2 characters. From there, I wondered if a new “alphabet” could be derived, one more amenable to decryption, perhaps even simple substitution."
But this trick doesn't change much.