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• Voynich through Phonetic Irish

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  cabeswater > 12-11-2025, 05:49 PM

  (11-11-2025, 05:47 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (11-11-2025, 04:58 PM)cabeswater Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm happy to check for repeatability if you want me to but I don't think you're going to like what I have to say. I believe I've reached out to you via email before and then realised this was a much bigger bear to poke than I was bothered poking. I probably sound like the meanest person but in fact I would be over the moon if the Voynich was in Irish. I've no personal issues with you or your work but if you want a native speaker's input you should probably heed what the native speaker is telling you. I won't be watching any videos; text or images only since that's how papers are written, and if you can't get your point across in written form then your point is too obscure to work. 
  
  Your method of saying the sounds you think you see and letting a dictation service find words that match is the very definition of cherry picking. 
  
  How would you translate f108v.40 EVA "Sheeal qokeedy qokeedy qokeedy"? 
  
  Can you explain why such a heavy proportion of the manuscript's text includes words that start with "fo-" [EVA qo] meaning under- (according to you), and "ath-" [EVA o] meaing re- (also according to you)? You said previously in the thread that you just ignore some of the vord initial EVA o, but you include it in the vord when it suits you. I hope I don't have to explain why just throwing away the most heavily featured feature of the text isn't great, and even worse to pick and choose when you keep it and when you disregard it.

  
  I understand the frustration. Im at work so Im not able to respond as in depth as I’d like. I also am not a professional linguist. “4o” = in writing and in sound “fa” “fo” “feo” in modern Irish. Often in the text it is fo- the prefix meaning sub or under.

  
  
  That... didn't answer any of my questions. I get that you think EVA qo means sub-. I'm asking why would the manuscript have, I don't have exact counts to hand, but such a crazy amount of the vords start with sub-? And such an amount of vords starting with re- (EVA o)? Since that's how you're translating it. Just an offhand guess but like half of the vords in the VMS start with EVA o or EVA qo. Why would half the words in the manuscript start with re- or sub-? How are you explaining this in your translations? It doesn't look like you're getting a proportionate amount of translated words starting with re- or sub-, either because you're changing what you're deciding to translate them as or you're just disregarding them altogether because they don't fit how you're deciding to translate things. 
  
  Btw I'm not frustrated at all, I'm delighted that I can finally provide something useful to a discussion here. I fear I'm coming across as terribly rude but really I'm just terribly educated on Irish, particularly on medieval Irish manuscripts. I spent my masters studying and translating them, in fact, specifically medical manuscripts, so I know well how Irish was written at the time, and it came out nothing like anything you've posted. 
  
  I feel like an example here might put into context what you're doing for others to understand. I'll paste an original and translated paragraph from one of my favourites, A Handbook of Gynaecology and Midwifery, dated 1352. The text I ended up with for this manuscript was collated from Dublin, Royal Irish Academy, MS 23 F 19; Dublin, Royal Irish Academy, MS 23 M 36; and Dublin, Trinity College Library, MS E 4. 1. (1436) 101ra–106a. I've put the line breaks and numbers in myself just now so everyone can understand what line becomes what in the translation process.
  
  

  1. Labrum anois do purgoid speitsialta na mban,
     
  2. oir ni teas amain gnimhaidhus isna mnaibh do tirmughadh na leannann mailiseach bis anntu,
     
  3. & ni fliuchaidhecht amain anmainnighes iad do reir datha,
     
  4. indus co fetfaidhi drochlenna d’innarbad cum na mball foirimeallach do reir nadura.
     
  5. Et da reir sin is do medugad an teasa d’ordaigh an Coimsidhtheoir neamhdha purgoid gnaith
     
  6. do glanadh na mball foirimellach & inmedonach mailli re fuil mista,
     
  7. darub comhainm asin innsgni choitcinn an blath banda,
     
  8. .i. mar na tabhraid na craind torad gan blath,
     
  9. as mar sin na tabhraid na mna torad coir gan blath.
     
  10. Et as amhlaidh tic an purgoid sin dona mnaibh
      
  11. mar tic silne dona fearaibh tre aislingthibh,
      
  12. oir tromaighthear naduir agna mnaibh & agna fearaibh
      
  13. an tan fodograid imarcraid na lennann d’innarbad & nach fedaid.
      

  1. Now we shall speak of the special purgation of women,
     
  2. for it is not heat alone that acts in women to dry up the moist humours that are in them,
     
  3. and it is not moisture alone that nourishes them according to its quality,
     
  4. so that the evil humours may be able to be driven out towards the outward parts according to nature.
     
  5. And therefore, for the increase of the heat, the heavenly Governor ordained the customary purgation
     
  6. for the cleansing of the outward and inward parts, together with the blood of menses,
     
  7. by which name it is called in the common tongue the flower of womanhood,
     
  8. i.e.: just as trees do not bear fruit without blossom,
     
  9. so too women do not give right fruit without blossom.
     
  10. And thus this purgation comes to women as seed comes to men through dreams,
      
  11. for nature becomes burdened in women and in men when it would strive
      
  12. to drive out the abundance of humours, and cannot.
      

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  Doireannjane > 12-11-2025, 06:52 PM

  (12-11-2025, 05:49 PM)cabeswater Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (11-11-2025, 05:47 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (11-11-2025, 04:58 PM)cabeswater Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm happy to check for repeatability if you want me to but I don't think you're going to like what I have to say. I believe I've reached out to you via email before and then realised this was a much bigger bear to poke than I was bothered poking. I probably sound like the meanest person but in fact I would be over the moon if the Voynich was in Irish. I've no personal issues with you or your work but if you want a native speaker's input you should probably heed what the native speaker is telling you. I won't be watching any videos; text or images only since that's how papers are written, and if you can't get your point across in written form then your point is too obscure to work. 
  
  Your method of saying the sounds you think you see and letting a dictation service find words that match is the very definition of cherry picking. 
  
  How would you translate f108v.40 EVA "Sheeal qokeedy qokeedy qokeedy"? 
  
  Can you explain why such a heavy proportion of the manuscript's text includes words that start with "fo-" [EVA qo] meaning under- (according to you), and "ath-" [EVA o] meaing re- (also according to you)? You said previously in the thread that you just ignore some of the vord initial EVA o, but you include it in the vord when it suits you. I hope I don't have to explain why just throwing away the most heavily featured feature of the text isn't great, and even worse to pick and choose when you keep it and when you disregard it.

  
  I understand the frustration. Im at work so Im not able to respond as in depth as I’d like. I also am not a professional linguist. “4o” = in writing and in sound “fa” “fo” “feo” in modern Irish. Often in the text it is fo- the prefix meaning sub or under.

  
  
  That... didn't answer any of my questions. I get that you think EVA qo means sub-. I'm asking why would the manuscript have, I don't have exact counts to hand, but such a crazy amount of the vords start with sub-? And such an amount of vords starting with re- (EVA o)? Since that's how you're translating it. Just an offhand guess but like half of the vords in the VMS start with EVA o or EVA qo. Why would half the words in the manuscript start with re- or sub-? How are you explaining this in your translations? It doesn't look like you're getting a proportionate amount of translated words starting with re- or sub-, either because you're changing what you're deciding to translate them as or you're just disregarding them altogether because they don't fit how you're deciding to translate things. 
  
  Btw I'm not frustrated at all, I'm delighted that I can finally provide something useful to a discussion here. I fear I'm coming across as terribly rude but really I'm just terribly educated on Irish, particularly on medieval Irish manuscripts. I spent my masters studying and translating them, in fact, specifically medical manuscripts, so I know well how Irish was written at the time, and it came out nothing like anything you've posted. 
  
  I feel like an example here might put into context what you're doing for others to understand. I'll paste an original and translated paragraph from one of my favourites, A Handbook of Gynaecology and Midwifery, dated 1352. The text I ended up with for this manuscript was collated from Dublin, Royal Irish Academy, MS 23 F 19; Dublin, Royal Irish Academy, MS 23 M 36; and Dublin, Trinity College Library, MS E 4. 1. (1436) 101ra–106a. I've put the line breaks and numbers in myself just now so everyone can understand what line becomes what in the translation process.
  
  

  1. Labrum anois do purgoid speitsialta na mban,
     
  2. oir ni teas amain gnimhaidhus isna mnaibh do tirmughadh na leannann mailiseach bis anntu,
     
  3. & ni fliuchaidhecht amain anmainnighes iad do reir datha,
     
  4. indus co fetfaidhi drochlenna d’innarbad cum na mball foirimeallach do reir nadura.
     
  5. Et da reir sin is do medugad an teasa d’ordaigh an Coimsidhtheoir neamhdha purgoid gnaith
     
  6. do glanadh na mball foirimellach & inmedonach mailli re fuil mista,
     
  7. darub comhainm asin innsgni choitcinn an blath banda,
     
  8. .i. mar na tabhraid na craind torad gan blath,
     
  9. as mar sin na tabhraid na mna torad coir gan blath.
     
  10. Et as amhlaidh tic an purgoid sin dona mnaibh
      
  11. mar tic silne dona fearaibh tre aislingthibh,
      
  12. oir tromaighthear naduir agna mnaibh & agna fearaibh
      
  13. an tan fodograid imarcraid na lennann d’innarbad & nach fedaid.
      

  1. Now we shall speak of the special purgation of women,
     
  2. for it is not heat alone that acts in women to dry up the moist humours that are in them,
     
  3. and it is not moisture alone that nourishes them according to its quality,
     
  4. so that the evil humours may be able to be driven out towards the outward parts according to nature.
     
  5. And therefore, for the increase of the heat, the heavenly Governor ordained the customary purgation
     
  6. for the cleansing of the outward and inward parts, together with the blood of menses,
     
  7. by which name it is called in the common tongue the flower of womanhood,
     
  8. i.e.: just as trees do not bear fruit without blossom,
     
  9. so too women do not give right fruit without blossom.
     
  10. And thus this purgation comes to women as seed comes to men through dreams,
      
  11. for nature becomes burdened in women and in men when it would strive
      
  12. to drive out the abundance of humours, and cannot.
      

  
  I’ll take a look thanks! I enjoy this, and I wouldn’t take corrections personally. So I see what you’re saying. I mentioned this on TikTok but I think this could be a copy someone made of a text from much earlier in time and/or a commoner’s tongue. It feels(without logic) this was written by those interconnected with the language(so not copying another text) Possibly a mainly spoken branch of Irish or Celtic root that allows me to get all these taxonomyies and logical translations. I don’t think the language and writing is the language or writing of most medieval texts written for nobility/upperclass.There was a distinct difference in most regions and far less record of commoner’s writing. 
  
  Christine de Pizan’s father was a physician in Italy. She wanted to write for all classes, even though she was employed by nobility. I argued this was her but I’m less sure than I was. 
  
  When I did my deep dive last year, research lead me to looking into the medical schools in Italy then. There were students from all over and the medical  manuscripts in Italy at the time are similar but more refined look. 
  
  What I have, 4o- only means sub or under prefix some of the time. It represents a sound. The spelling for that sound in modern Irish is feo fa or fo-.
  
  How would I be getting hyper specific taxonomies and logical instructions and even lyrical and clever sentences without cherry-picking if it is not linked directly to a Celtic language? Genuine question there.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  Doireannjane > 12-11-2025, 07:23 PM

  Another genuine question, is this some kind of prank?

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  rikforto > 12-11-2025, 07:23 PM

  (12-11-2025, 05:29 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you able to set down a list of rules you used to produce your translation? That would seem to me to be a necessary precursor to reproducing it

  
  Yeah, I think so, I kept track of my process on github so I could back track. Github is great because I can also easily search and select repetitions for the the decisions with words/searches where  I’m making calls unconsciously.
  [/quote]
  
  Then please do so!
  
  I understand this might take some time, and I encourage you to spend some time writing this up. In particular, anytime you have multiple choices, please explain them. For example, when there are multiple sounds from a single Voynich letter or you find yourself saying there are exceptions, list them and explain how someone else can know and implement them. If you are unsure, I encourage you to spend some time looking at your method critically because this is a common source of false and unreproducible "solutions"; even if you are ultimately right, you are presenting it to an audience that views those sorts of techniques very unfavorably. Someone has already identified you translating the same Voynichese word differently in different places, which is a huge indication you are not being as objective as you may think.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  oshfdk > 12-11-2025, 07:25 PM

  (12-11-2025, 06:52 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How would I be getting hyper specific taxonomies and logical instructions and even lyrical and clever sentences without cherry-picking if it is not linked directly to a Celtic language? Genuine question there.

  
  Could be by chance. For what I know, people in general underestimate the probability of pure coincidences. Like they ride bus number 3575 and then get a bill for 35.75 the same day and they would go "wow, how unlikely is that?!" That is not unlikely at all, coincidences like this would happen many times a year just by chance if you are attentive enough, given that we are constantly bombarded with random numbers every day.
  
  Similarly, people would accidentally learn about some obscure city in Japan and the next day they would watch a movie and all of a sudden the action takes place in this city. Nothing unusual about this. Happens all the time by chance.
  
  I'm not saying that your findings are all spurious, and it's possible to estimate how likely they are to be spurious or systematic, but you can't do this just on a hunch, some very specific math should be involved there, as far as I know. I don't think it's possible to reliably determine this using intuition only.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  Doireannjane > 12-11-2025, 11:56 PM

  (12-11-2025, 07:25 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (12-11-2025, 06:52 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How would I be getting hyper specific taxonomies and logical instructions and even lyrical and clever sentences without cherry-picking if it is not linked directly to a Celtic language? Genuine question there.

  
  Could be by chance. For what I know, people in general underestimate the probability of pure coincidences. Like they ride bus number 3575 and then get a bill for 35.75 the same day and they would go "wow, how unlikely is that?!" That is not unlikely at all, coincidences like this would happen many times a year just by chance if you are attentive enough, given that we are constantly bombarded with random numbers every day.
  
  Similarly, people would accidentally learn about some obscure city in Japan and the next day they would watch a movie and all of a sudden the action takes place in this city. Nothing unusual about this. Happens all the time by chance.
  
  I'm not saying that your findings are all spurious, and it's possible to estimate how likely they are to be spurious or systematic, but you can't do this just on a hunch, some very specific math should be involved there, as far as I know. I don't think it's possible to reliably determine this using intuition only.

  
  THAT just might be the most difficult thing to comprehend since starting this haha. Perhaps a conversation of a much wider scope. While no linguist, I entered with methods/procedures/notes and edits. I made multiple iterations. My work and research I present about my archeological hypotheses (Gobekli Tepe, Stonehenge, Newgrange  etc), are logical, reasonable and based on evidence. With this, I did the same, I did not entertain spiritual/abstract theories/methods. Intuition of course plays a role in investigation but I’ve touched most pages after my most recent iteration only to have reasonable sentences reveal themselves free of superimposition. Literal. Nothing flashy. Precise identification and instruction without any prior knowledge or research on my end. Coincidences spectacularly, or alarmingly, overflowing.
  
  I appreciate those of you entertaining this. I’ll make my GitHub public and analyze pushes from February onward. There are 200ish commits and over 3500 lines. Should I also place the rest of all of the images with labels in this thread?i I’m not entirely aware of the VN etiquette.
  
  Thanks again for your input

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  Doireannjane > 13-11-2025, 03:41 AM

  Here are two examples that demonstrate what I've been doing. First a word sounding and reading immediately when searched. No cherry picking. And one word that isn't entirely straightforward but Teanglann suggests different masculine version (different spelling but similar sound), and then I add the present tense "entanglement" = "entangling"/"Smoothing a path" When Teanglann doesn't do this for me, I will sound out alternatives with the phonetic breakdown/lexicon I established.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  oshfdk > 13-11-2025, 09:04 AM

  (12-11-2025, 11:56 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.THAT just might be the most difficult thing to comprehend since starting this haha. Perhaps a conversation of a much wider scope. While no linguist, I entered with methods/procedures/notes and edits. I made multiple iterations. My work and research I present about my archeological hypotheses (Gobekli Tepe, Stonehenge, Newgrange  etc), are logical, reasonable and based on evidence. With this, I did the same, I did not entertain spiritual/abstract theories/methods. Intuition of course plays a role in investigation but I’ve touched most pages after my most recent iteration only to have reasonable sentences reveal themselves free of superimposition. Literal. Nothing flashy. Precise identification and instruction without any prior knowledge or research on my end. Coincidences spectacularly, or alarmingly, overflowing.

  
  From my point of view, all of the above is subjective and depends on your own estimations of what is precise and reasonable. For me there is nothing wrong with approaching a problem subjectively or intuitively, as long as you can convince other people familiar with the matter that your findings are valid. Many people on this forum have spent decades studying the manuscript (not me, I'm a relative newbie here), have witnessed hundreds of attempts of solving this mystery, so I would say they qualify as "people familiar with the matter" and are quite suitable as "peer reviewers". If they don't seem convinced this is the sign that the evidence supporting your approach is not good enough (yet?).
  
  

  (12-11-2025, 11:56 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I appreciate those of you entertaining this. I’ll make my GitHub public and analyze pushes from February onward. There are 200ish commits and over 3500 lines. Should I also place the rest of all of the images with labels in this thread?i I’m not entirely aware of the VN etiquette.

  
  I don't make rules here, but as far as I understand, this is your thread and you can post as often as you like. My personal opinion, it would be much better if you could provide a short but very convincing example of something that shows precise identification or a very reasonable sentence with as few intermediate steps as possible. I don't think you need 3500 lines to make your case, just one should be enough.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  rikforto > 13-11-2025, 01:14 PM

  (13-11-2025, 03:41 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here are two examples that demonstrate what I've been doing. First a word sounding and reading immediately when searched. No cherry picking. And one word that isn't entirely straightforward but Teanglann suggests different masculine version (different spelling but similar sound), and then I add the present tense "entanglement" = "entangling"/"Smoothing a path" When Teanglann doesn't do this for me, I will sound out alternatives with the phonetic breakdown/lexicon I established.

  
  At a very high level, I, and I think most others commenting, understand your method:
  1. Transliterate the Voynich text to the Latin alphabet
  2. Put the transliteration into Teanglann and select, sometimes from multiple options, an Irish word with similar spelling
  3. Choose an English gloss from the translations options
  4. Render the gloss in slightly more natural language
  
  The questions that you are avoiding correspond to those steps:
  1a. How did you arrive at this transliteration?
  1b. When there are multiple phonetic values, how do you decide between letters?
  2. When Teanglann offers more than one possibility, how do you select between them?
  3. When Teanglann offers more than one possibility, how do you select between hem?
  4. Does this translation actually reflect the grammar of the "Irish" sentence implied by 2?
  
  Opening up your Github or showing more dictionary entries will not answer these questions because it is not a misunderstanding of your tools, but rather how you are using them that animates these questions. The choices you are making might well be invisible to you, but you are making them, and several people have pointed out specifically where and asked for clear answers about them, not for your whole translation or Teanglann entries.

• RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish

  Doireannjane > 13-11-2025, 04:47 PM

  The reason I suggested showing my github, is you can see how my transcriptions evolved in the beginning. I thought my R was an M for a while and I didn't no how the fada was functioning, I didn't know there was L overlap. I established the transliteration using the lepontic, venetian and lugano alphabets *from wikipedia. I used the kiki and boba theory (and some intuition) and I assigned characters based on how often they show in Irish. The weirder characters, I noticed they looked like combos right away, so I assigned and adjusted the suffixes as I went along and got a better feel for sounds.
  
  Ok so I recorded in real time exactly what I do with a good example that I hadn't fully translated. I'm using words we've seen in this thread and similarly spelled words. 
  
  The files are in order as I searched them and what I searched. and what I chose. The names of the file are what I searched on Teannglan. 
  
  
  
   Previous overall understandings: din= often diminutive, in= often verb form, present, -il is often descriptive, three types of -cht suffix depending on pointiness
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