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New images: Marci letter wax
- New images: Marci letter wax
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Mauro > 01-11-2025, 10:33 PM
For reference, the watermark in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not described as 'hats', but as 'staffe'. It means 'stirrups', but it also indicates a lot of other objects which more or less resemble stirrups (in the modern usage it's often an L or C-shaped piece of metal used as a mechanical fixture). -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > 05-11-2025, 12:47 AM
Referring to the watermark in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I interpret this to say that both motifs should appear below each other. The photo of the Marci letter we have does not indicate any such thing, but it it a bit on the margin of the photo.
At the same site (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), there are a few more candidates, for example: DE4215-PO-31917 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
This says Regensburg 1640, which is quite near Prague. I am not sure what is the meaning of the multiple lines in this motif, which is why more expert help will be good.
Also this one: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
with just the year 1663/1664 (which is very close to the date of the Marci letter). -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Bluetoes101 > 05-11-2025, 01:47 AM
It should think it would be possible to create a timeframe for it, from what I saw the move from tassel hat to "top hat" starts around 1800.
Presumably we can find the earliest point and then maybe an expert can determine where within this timeline the Marci letter falls.
The lack of additional letters/images and how joined up the brims of the hats are seems a decent indicator.
.. I must say I don't know any 17C paper watermark experts.. but hopefully someone does!
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
ReneZ > 05-11-2025, 11:15 AM
I'm still hoping for some additional feedback.
One thing I am wondering about is the shapes of the tassels hanging from the hats.
In all examples of known watermarks shown in this thread, the vertical lines touch the small circles on the side.
In the Marci letter, it looks more like they end at the top, in the middle of the circles.
It is quite hard to be sure though, and I also have no idea if it is relevant. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 11-12-2025, 04:24 PM
Just FYI, I'll be at the Beinecke on Monday and will try to get a better image of the watermark as well as measure it. Ideally, they'll let me use a light table to image and measure the watermark, but I won't know if that will be possible until I get there. Stay tuned... -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
proto57 > 11-12-2025, 04:57 PM
(11-12-2025, 04:24 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just FYI, I'll be at the Beinecke on Monday and will try to get a better image of the watermark as well as measure it. Ideally, they'll let me use a light table to image and measure the watermark, but I won't know if that will be possible until I get there. Stay tuned...
Well you are pretty familiar with the place of course, but perhaps there is a page lighting device kicking around somewhere. The LOC had one, which they let me use when I was looking for the watermarks on their copies of the 1475 Valturius. The device really took the fight out of it... it lit a translucent white sheet, using a light box (you can see sitting behind the volume) via a fiber optic cable, so that the sheet itself was not discernibly warmer than room temperature.
I had jotted down the maker, and tried to find one online, but wasn't able to. I also thought about making one of my own, but never got around to tackling that project. But I would not be surprised if one of these is not sitting around in a storage room at the Beinecke somewhere... It can't hurt to ask.
Rich -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 11-12-2025, 08:41 PM
Yes, exactly. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
RobGea > 11-12-2025, 11:28 PM
Hi LisaFaginDavis,
Off-Topic: -- I know this is a bit cheeky and i apologize in advance for it but,
If you are going to be close up with the vms , please could you possibly estimate on the closed vms, how grimy / dirty the exposed vellum edges are ?
I mean like, the top, bottom and sides, where people would have opened the vms.
I would expect the grime-index to increase from top > bottom > side.
I have always wondered how well used the vms is , and the griminess of the edges seems like a good indicator. ( it is hard to tell from the pages alone )
Thanks. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 12-12-2025, 12:39 AM
I won't be seeing the VMS on this trip, just the Marci letter. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
proto57 > 13-12-2025, 03:37 PM
(12-12-2025, 12:39 AM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I won't be seeing the VMS on this trip, just the Marci letter.
Hi Lisa: I know we discussed this in this thread, and not to be a pest... but hopefully you will have a chance (in addition to your seal photos and dimensions):
1) Measure the chains and lines.
2) Accurately measure the dimensions of the sheet of paper (yes they have them on the site, but maybe more closely?)
3) Take a closeup picture of the seal to show all details of it. It looks broken, but perhaps there are some remaining, informative bits?
Of course I would still love to meet you there, if possible. I could bring my macro lens and graduated loupe for measuring. And would love to meet you, too. We could have coffee, or lunch, too if you like and had the time.
But barring that, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, only to not miss the opportunity to suggest it... I would love the above listed items, which I had long intended to attempt to obtain, myself, at some point.
Rich