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New images: Marci letter wax
- New images: Marci letter wax
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RE: New images: Marci letter wax
nablator > 24-12-2025, 01:33 AM
(24-12-2025, 12:20 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-12-2025, 10:57 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the letter had a sort of gauze or mesh over it.
Indeed, but there is also a digital image without that. I cannot remember on which occasion I got that, but I temporarily put it You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The "gauze or mesh" is on every image AFAIK, more or less visible depending on the direction of light and resolution. I assumed that it is on the paper, a relief produced by the press at production.
The viewer on the Beinecke website makes it nearly invisible but if you download the image, zoom and play with levels, it's there. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Your image is the same but cropped a little. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
nablator > 24-12-2025, 01:57 AM
(24-12-2025, 01:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see it too now, especially over the wax. Let me double-check what else I have...
It really looks as if it is above the wax, not on the paper, so it is a thin gauze or mesh after all. Also it is visible around the tear on the left side, not following the edge of the paper. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
proto57 > 24-12-2025, 01:57 AM
(24-12-2025, 12:20 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-12-2025, 10:57 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the letter had a sort of gauze or mesh over it.
Indeed, but there is also a digital image without that. I cannot remember on which occasion I got that, but I temporarily put it You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
(24-12-2025, 01:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(24-12-2025, 01:33 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your image is the same but cropped a little.
I see it too now, especially over the wax. Let me double-check what else I have...
Yes, thanks Rene... I was about to post the below image, and see that Nablator and you both now note the mesh is on the image you uploaded:
So I think it possible that your image is the Beinecke image. So I went to Lisa's full letter image, and cropped this same area:
I think the case may be this... and maybe Lisa can answer, unless someone else here has handled this letter: Perhaps that mesh IS attached, maybe as protection and support, and on the Beinecke image, being front-lit, the mesh tends to blur and obscure the letter's details. But on the light table (back-lit) examples taken by Lisa, the mesh is less obvious.
I don't know, but that would be my guess so far, unless Lisa can chime in here: Is that mesh glued on?
Rich -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
nablator > 24-12-2025, 03:05 PM
There is a 2nd gauze overlay on the verso side. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 24-12-2025, 05:40 PM
I think it was a repair to protect the letter from further tearing -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
LisaFaginDavis > 24-12-2025, 05:53 PM
I can find out from Paula Zyats when the repair was done - I think it probably wasn't done at the Beinecke because, at least when I worked in the conservation lab there in the early 1990s, the process would have been to use Japanese tissue, not mesh. It probably arrived at Beinecke that way, in which case it was likely done by Kraus' conservator. But I'll see what I can find out. -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Legit > 06-01-2026, 08:41 PM
(11-10-2025, 04:05 PM)LisaFaginDavis Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, everyone,
Colin Layfield, Claire Bowern, and I spent a few hours with the Voynich Manuscript yesterday at the Beinecke. At Rene's request, I took some pictures comparing the stains inside the front cover with the wax stains on the Marci letter. They clearly allign in terms of rough size and distance from one another, although the shapes aren't the same, and it's difficult to see how the letter could have been folded and laid into the manuscript in such a way as to leave those stains. So I don't think we can say FOR SURE that those stains are related to the Marci letter's wax, although they certainly MIGHT be. Images here, including a close-up of the watermark:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There are creases of several different folding patterns visible in the Marci letter, but because it has been carefully flattened it is not possible to see exactly how the letter was folded.
You're calling these stains but it's hard to tell from the images - on the VM, are these stains or are they spots where the manuscript has stuck to something and been scraped or torn off in that shape?
If they are stains, why does the red wax look pink where it thins, spreads soaks into the paper, but on the VM the stains are a pale yellow? -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
Jorge_Stolfi > 07-01-2026, 09:18 PM
We have been assuming all along that Marci physically attached the cover letter to the inside of the book when he sent the book to Kircher. But is that a reasonable assumption?
Presumably he would have wrapped the book in (oiled?) paper and secured it with string, possibly with wax seals. Then there would be no need to attach the cover letter to the book. He could have just placed he letter inside the wrapping.
Even if the cover letter was physically attached, would it be normal for Kircher to leave it there? Are there other examples of cover letters sent to Kircher that are still attached to their respective books?
If Wilfrid received the book with the letter physically attached, I suppose that he detached it at some point, before showing MS 408 in public for the first time. (It was shown without the letter, correct?)
Do we have photos of the letter still physically attached to the book's cover?
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: New images: Marci letter wax
asteckley > 07-01-2026, 09:47 PM
(07-01-2026, 09:18 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We have been assuming all along that Marci physically attached the cover letter to the inside of the book when he sent the book to Kircher. But is that a reasonable assumption?
Presumably he would have wrapped the book in (oiled?) paper and secured it with string, possibly with wax seals. Then there would be no need to attach the cover letter to the book. He could have just placed he letter inside the wrapping.
Even if the cover letter was physically attached, would it be normal for Kircher to leave it there? Are there other examples of cover letters sent to Kircher that are still attached to their respective books?
If Wilfrid received the book with the letter physically attached, I suppose that he detached it at some point, before showing MS 408 in public for the first time. (It was shown without the letter, correct?)
Do we have photos of the letter still physically attached to the book's cover?
All the best, --stolfi
If you mean photos of the letter still physically attached and taken during the period prior to 1921 (and closer to 1912), then that would be surprising evidence to come to light at this stage!
And while it would tilt the evidence slightly in favor of the letter being legitimately connected to (and by inference, referring to) the VMS, it wouldn't really change it that much. Even if physically attached, then (unless it provided more forensically datable material tying the connection itself back to 1666), there is still a period of 250 years of uncertainty as to when and how the letter (even if completely authentic) came to be colocated with the VMS.