• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

Getting close to a source for f85r2

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Imagery
  • Getting close to a source for f85r2
• Getting close to a source for f85r2

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  R. Sale > 19-05-2025, 08:48 PM

  The proposed similarity of the two birds is apparent, even though the comparative parts seem to differ in many aspects. The beaks, hooked or not. The eyes, a circle or just a dot. The bodies, stippled or marked by four rows of indented lines, The wings, feathered only on the bottom edge in the VMs or separated and feathered on the sides. The tail, spread out or confined.
  
  Is the bird 'swan diving' into its hood? 
  
  The object he is holding looks like an eagle's leg erased in the heraldic references.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Dobri > 23-05-2025, 04:25 AM

  (19-05-2025, 11:53 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The sanguinic, air has a bird resembling the one on f86v5. He also stands on a Wolkenband.
  
  What is he holding? It looks like an eagle's leg.
  ...

  
  The illustrations below are from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The bird could also be a goshawk. 
  
  
  
  

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Dobri > 23-05-2025, 06:16 AM

  In Book II, Chapter XXXIII, of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it is written that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  MarcoP > 23-05-2025, 06:36 AM

  So Bernd's first idea was right and these are indeed bird legs used to feed and/or call back the falcons.
  These are a few images from another copy of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
     

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 16-08-2025, 09:21 PM

  (07-01-2025, 10:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..] ever gotten to proof that the VM makers used physical sources.

  Getting closer.
  
  The "Hausbuch" source shows some more things you skipped before,
  the previous chapter there showed all 4 ladies:
  
  
  
  Das erst(e) ist d(a)ß *Lenz = the first is the spring
  Das and(ere) ist der sumer = the other is the summer
  D(a)ß dritte ist d(er) herbst = the third is the autumn
  Das vierd (=vierte) ist d(er) winter = the fourth is the winter
  
  Those four women represent the 4 seasons.
  After that, this guy appears in "Hausbuch":
  
  
  
  xxxx d(er) Mensch nat?et ist nach d(en) vier Conplexion(en) =
  ???? the man is made?/born? following the four temperaments
  
  So the next images are adressing the 4 temperaments according to those developed by ancient greek Galenos of Pergamon or even the Egyptians before.
  
  
  
  Die erste conplexion Sang(i)nea = the first temperament Sanguine
  Die and(ere) heisser Colera = the other one is named Choleric
  Die dritte Flegma = the third (is) Phlegmatic
  Die vierde melancolia = the fourth (is) Melancholic
  
  During the later medieval the "4 temperaments" were also loaded with the meanings of 
  - the ages of (wo)man
  - the four directions
  - the year's four seasons
  - 3 zodiacs to each temper  etc.
  
  In the times before (~beginning of 12century) this here was a representation (MS428 Cambridge lib., sorry for the quality, did not find the direct source):
  
  
  
  "Flegma" is here a "just talking" guy, "Sa(n)gins" next to him holds an interesting item: looks like the thing his VMS opponent (sanguinis is counterclockwise in Voynich) holds up.
  I think both items are birds, not flowers.
  "Colania" and "cola rika" are both doing something with spindles, but this symbolism is at least 300 years before VMS and "Hausbuch" -- VMS sticks closer to principles which also applied to Hausbuch.
  
  The temperaments' sequence is:
  " Phlegma" -- winter & night;  Baby--old man; birth/death
  "Sanguine" -- spring &morning; childhood
  "Choleric" -- summer & noon, Youth
  "Melancholic" -- autumn & evening, adulthood
  GOTO "Phlegma"...
  
  So the lady with the wreath (seems not like a rosary) in VMS is autumn/melancholia and the sequence is not round-circle in those drawings, but jumping between segments.
  I understand the "just talking" guy at the top of VMS circle as "Phlegma"; the one with the small bottle as "choleric".
  
  Here is another one, also MS428 (and copy-from-copy):
  
  ]
  
  Can recognize just 2 calida and 2 frigida for the different tempers, but these figures are doing funny things with liquids. Maybe someone knows more here.
  
  The "4 temperaments" theory was spreaded from ancient times to 16th century and lost ground from then on. It was even copied by the Arabs and translated to arab and syrian.
  This here is an image from the end of this period (1574AD), mind the detail at "Sanguin" (and "Phlegma") bottle:
  
  
  
  
  This all would allow the suggestion that VMS f85r(left) shows the 4 human temperaments or, in case, the 4 seasons.
  Again one gets the strange feeling that the VMS draftsman did not completely understand what he was doing there.
  
  The findings of this thread may prove that VMS was created with a "modern" version of 4-tempers-theory, but interlaced different levels of it without any sorrow. 
  This might also consolidate an european origin -- but honestly, the wreath lady looks a bit mongolian/tatarian/asian to me, and not hunchbacked at all
  
  edit:
  for better comparison I add the VMS image here:
  
  
  
  Voynich manuscript is - again - mean enough and does not offer any words that may even distantly look like labels according to the "classic" namings "Phlegma", "Sanguine" etc.
  All texts seem to be the usual unknown explanation-type word sets.

• RE: Getting close to a source for f85r2

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 27-08-2025, 07:43 PM

  Cannot edit previous comment anymore, so I have to add it here:
  
  the central "sun" 
  
  
  
  is nothing less than the quintessence or fifth element, symbolized by the sun, gold or even diamonds.
  Aether fills the skies beyond the moon according to ancient Greek understanding (and some others), this may be meant by these fountains. A alchemistic or philisophical usage came after production of VMS, even the word quintessence was introduced not earlier than 16th century.
  
  That would complete this drawing as a representation of four tempers/complexions/elements according to Hippokrates and the fifth element in center.
  (by the way, the "Phlegma" guy on the right, holding up a small bottle, is driven by yellow bile. All temperaments refer to body liquids and, thereby, bottles, as shown in previous posting. The Sanguine is often accompanied by birds of different sizes, not necessarily coming from a bottle. At all, there is no "doctor examining a bottle of piss" in VMS...)
  
  
  This here is for comparison with 12th century drawing, previous post (from a german manuscript 15th ct):
  
  
  
  It continues the representation of Melancholia by a woman with a spindle; 
  VMS for some reason left that style and shows the lady with the green-blue dress and a wreath as "Melancholia".
  
  Another one:
  "Sanguine" is accompanied by a goat eating grapes which severely reminds of f 70v/71r.
  
  
  
  
  
  - I know that Ripa's book and this picture is at least 150 years younger;
  but it founds upon an understanding assembled centuries before VMS' production.
  
  This is the page with "Geissbock" (somewhere in the middle of it): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  - webpage also refers to the medical poem You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  - Italian readers may have noticed the citation of Pierio Valeriano already (who is too young as well for VMS), but also a reference to Aristotle
  
  - the goat of Sanguine is not necessarily the zodiacs' Aries or even Capricorn;
  as there is no clear evidence for both goats in 70v and 71r being Aries, apart from those weird, later-added "abril" labels, 
  there may be an understanding for both roundels of 70v, 71r being just collections of human, elementary or already alchemistic properties which just describe the Sanguine/Air !
  Aries and Capricorn are not connected to Sanguine, but to Phlegma and Melancholia.
  
  Those who still believe Voynichese is a 1:1 Latin-based edition may have a try with the corresponding Sanguine/Choleric/Melancholic/Phlegmatic chapters in the Regimen poem.
  
  Good luck!
• Next Oldest Next Newest