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f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

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• f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Ruby Novacna > 05-07-2024, 12:35 AM

  (04-07-2024, 08:03 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Look at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Juan posted.

  Precisely, by following the link given by Juan, I did not find peucedanum, unless I see poorly.
  Otras denominaciones griegas
  ἐλξῖτις - καννοχερσαία - ἀμελξίνη - σουκόταχος (συκοτράγος) - ψυχουλκός - κιττάμπελος - κισσάμεθον (κισσάνθεμον) - ἀνατεταμένον - παρθένιον - σιδηρῖτις - ἡράκλειον - ἀσυρία (ἀγρία) - ὑγιενινὴ ἀγρία - κλυβάδιον (κλύβατις) - πολυώνυμον

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 05-07-2024, 06:30 PM

  I went through BNF Grec 2179 and I spotted a couple of non-botanical details added to plants (it's possible there are others that I missed).
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (this was also discussed by Toresella in his paper about the Alchemical Herbal - "Gli Erbari degli Alchimisti). The plant is "Lonchitis". From the Latin translation You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "the flowers resemble gaping comic masks, black, sticking out like a tongue".
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has what appear to snake-heads. The plant was labelled "tragos" (maybe Ephedra distachya), but the label was cancelled. My best guess is that the origin is that the illustration is about the next plant, "bromos" (oats) which (from the Latin translation You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) "bears small hanging fruits at the tips, like little two-legged locusts". But this case is less clear than Lonchitis.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 07-07-2024, 11:01 AM

  (04-07-2024, 10:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Zodiac images seem to have come from a line that originated in France and passed through Alsace and Germany.

  
  Hi Koen,
  I would like to read more about this analysis of the zodiac cycle. Could you please share a source?
  
  As far as I know, the crossbow Sagittarius is the sign with the clearest geographical correlation, and I don't remember seeing evidence of its French origin.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  nablator > 07-07-2024, 12:53 PM

  (07-07-2024, 11:01 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I know, the crossbow Sagittarius is the sign with the clearest geographical correlation, and I don't remember seeing evidence of its French origin.

  
  Hi MarcoP,
  
  The crossbow had a bad reputation in France. Since it was banned at the of council of Latran in 1139, the only crossbowmen in France were foreign mercenaries.
  
  Koen probably meant the origin of the crayfish/lobsters: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The only double crayfish that I know, for the zodiac sign Cancer, is in a French book of hours: Lyon BM 5141 (ca. 1490) f. 6v
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 07-07-2024, 02:21 PM

  That statement could be misleading for those who don't know what it's about (personal opinion, of course). Personally I think that a detail appearing in a 1290 French bestiary, then in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not much evidence for a line of zodiac images "that originated in France and passed through Alsace and Germany". I see those as possibly independent works and I would be much more cautious. Also, a discussion of the evolution of the zodiac images should be based on an analysis of the whole sequence, in my opinion: we know that there are other details that don't have many parallels.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 07-07-2024, 02:25 PM

  (07-07-2024, 11:01 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I know, the crossbow Sagittarius is the sign with the clearest geographical correlation, and I don't remember seeing evidence of its French origin.

  
  In addition to what Nablator wrote, I must add that we are of course seeing the final result. Just like fashion, weapons may get updated to reflect contemporary taste and understanding. If we can only look at the weapon, then "German language-area source" is the most logical explanation. But if we also include things like the idle pose (not taking aim), things become more complex.
  
  There are also a number of interesting images on French stained glass windows: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  There is also your study You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., where the earlier examples are French and the more recent German. With all this evidence, I see little reason to doubt that the Zodiac images are based on something that originated in France, but had reached a German-speaking area by the time the VM used it.
  
  Of course, one may wonder to what extent this is relevant at all. Probably not so much, unless knowing the potential transmission of the images may one day help to pin down a likely source.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 07-07-2024, 02:41 PM

  (07-07-2024, 02:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is also your study You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., where the earlier examples are French and the more recent German.

  
  Hi Koen, thank you for the further details. I personally see no clear sign of a geographical evolution in my post. Could you please explain what makes you think so exactly?
  
  EDIT:
  
  

  (07-07-2024, 02:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With all this evidence, I see little reason to doubt that the Zodiac images are based on something that originated in France, but had reached a German-speaking area by the time the VM used it.

  
  I am still unclear about what the relevant evidence is. If I understand correctly, the idea is that there is a French Ur-Zodiac and that we can trace its evolution through time from the earliest example X to the Voynich manuscript. In my opinion, the evidence needed to evaluated the idea is:

  • a list of the features that define zodiacs belonging to the family (features shared by X and the Voynich zodiac);
    
  • earliest example X;
    
  • other examples sharing those features, later than X and earlier (or not much later) than the Voynich manuscript.
    

  
  Is the Soisson stained-glass zodiac the best candidate for X? It might be close to the right Cancer, but the window was heavily restored, so it does not appear to be 100% reliable.
  I understand that this is off-topic, maybe it's better to move the last comments to a separate thread.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 07-07-2024, 04:19 PM

  I'm not sure if it must have been a single Zodiac series, or if the images were originally from a Zodiac at all. I think it remains an open question in what kind of context the VM makers found the images: as a single cycle or not, Zodiac or not? 
  
  In your post at professor Bax' site, you write: "All the best matching cycles (see list below) originate from Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland and (possibly) Poland, with dates ranging from 1160 to 1450 ca. This evidence suggests that the Voynich zodiac cycle was copied from a source that was produced in Central Europe or in France, or by someone who was deeply familiar with works from that area."
  
  My argument is that fashion and objects (i.e. the weapon) are most likely to be updated. Those are the things we do not see in the older French sources. So I think a lot can be explained by positing originally French images (not necessarily the full cycle) that had been updated to more Central European tastes (likely German speaking) by the time the VM artists got them. In that way you get an archer in an idle stance (French examples) weilding a crossbow after the taste of central Europe. Or it could be that the VM artists updated the images themselves, in which case you may be right that it was an option that the source was French to begin with. 
  
  Now, my point remains even if we disregard any potential French pre-history of the central Zodiac images: if we try to reconstruct potential sources used by the VM artists, we are likely looking at sources drawn in from different places. (E.g. Balneis)

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 07-07-2024, 04:36 PM

  Thank you, Koen. I agree that there does not seem to be a single clear area of provenance for all the Voynich illustrations (the De Balneis is a good example and the Dioscorides parallels also point to Italy or further South-East). It seems we can also agree that, for the zodiac in particular, "Central Europe or France" is consistent with the evidence we have so far.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  ReneZ > 23-07-2024, 03:05 AM

  While looking for parallels to the Voynich MS, we must be aware that it is entirely likely that any relevant manuscripts may now be lost. Fortunately, there are also manuscripts that are not lost, but are just not very well known, either in general or to the amateur community interested in the Voynich MS.
  Just speaking for myself, and to give an example, I had not heard of Bologna MS Gr. 3632 before. 
  
  I just checked Minta Collins, where it is mentioned twice, the first entry giving some interesting details.
  She calls it mid-15th century, and online I saw an estimated origin of 1440. This is a bit on the late side, but still roughly contemporary with the Voynich MS. It is mainly an example of an interesting comparison, and evidence that there are still other manuscripts that have not come down to us.
  
  It seems to have interesting parallels to Vat.Chigi F.VII 159 which set the theme of this thread, and Paris BN Grec 2108. It is, however, a compilation from many sources. There don't seem to be many illustrations online, but the few that one can find are quite interesting.Below, some herbs apparently from Dioscorides, with - I find - very interesting roots.
  
  
     
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