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f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

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• f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Bernd > 19-06-2024, 07:13 PM

  Many thanks, Rene!
  From your You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  I find it interesting that Dioscorides himself complains about many inaccurate plant descriptions in herbals and lacking botany skills in physicians.
  'In his original introduction Dioscorides states that many physicians provided superficial accounts of the properties and diagnostic uses of drugs, often confusing one plant with another. Pliny the Elder confirms that physicians of his day knew little about compounding medications, entrusting these matters to seplasiarii, who frequently supplied spoiled or adulterated drugs. We learn from Fuchs that even in the sixteenth century hardly any contemporary physicians in Germany valued accurate knowledge of medicinal plants. This information did not concern them and was beneath their dignity — they left the study of medicinal plants to the superstitious, the foolish and old peasant women.'
  
  Dioscorides himself only partly managed to do better.
  'Although not as naïve as many other herbal writers, he showed little scientific interest — concentrating rather on the practical uses of plants — and sometimes giving only brief descriptions, perhaps from other primary sources.'
  
  I think we must consider the plant drawings in herbals more as decorations than practical information. What the plants looked like simply wasn't relevant. A physician would not go out there to collect plants, he bought the ingredients. Therefore there was little evolutionary selection pressure on the illustrations leading to quite fantastic or mislabeled plants. We see a strong decline in illustration quality during medieavl times compared to antiquity. This makes the almost identical illustrations in many Dioscorides copies  over centuries even more remarkable. Since the books most likely were not copied directly but assembled from separate text and image sources each time, we can deduct that a collection of stock paintings (likely on wood), must have been copied and transmitted over a considerable timeframe. At least a millenium. The question is - how long did these pinakes exist, where were they located and when did they disappear? Were such or different collections of images like from Diebold Lauber's workshop available at the time the VM was likely created?
  
  Also there appear to be much more Dioscorides copies or derived works:
  'There are many surviving manuscripts of De Materia Medica after Codex Vindobonensis — an important example being the seventh-century Greek alphabetic Codex Neapolitanus, in the possession of a Neapolitan monastery for many years, and then presented to Emperor Charles VI in 1717. It was taken to Vienna and subsequently to the Bibliotheca Nazionale in Naples. The drawings in Codex Neapolitanus are from the same source as Codex Vindobonensis, but are smaller and grouped together on fewer pages. A good copy of the Codex Vindobonensis from the fifteenth century is in the Cambridge University library; there is a line of descent to a fourteenth century manuscript, Paris GR 2091; and a seventeenth century descendant at Bologna — these four forming the primary alphabetic group. The secondary alphabetic group includes eleventh- and twelfth-century manuscripts at Pierpoint Morgan, Mount Atlas and the Vatican (GR 284).
  Next is the non-alphabetic Greek group, the best example the Paris Grec 2179 in the Bibliotheque Nationale, written in
  ninth-century Egypt, its naturalistic illustrations dating the draughtsmanship to the second or third century CE. Later manuscripts of the same group reside at Venice (St Marks 273 of the eleventh century), Florence, the Vatican,
  and Vienna.
  The Ostrogoths and Lombards encouraged Latin translations. The ninth-century Dioscorides Lombardus in the Munchener Staatsbibliothek (with its direct descendant, a South Italian manuscript in Beneventan script, Codex Longobard, Munich 337) has an excellent text, making it the most important of the Latin manuscripts. It is illustrated with approximately 900 lovely miniatures, more than twice as many as the 387 in Codex Vindobonensis. Herbarium Apulei (Codex Cassinensis 97), a ninth-century manuscript herbal from the late Roman period (about
  400CE) preserved at the Abbey of Monte Cassino in Italy, is based partly on Dioscorides Lombardus. Dioscorides Vulgaris (Palimpsest Lat 16), a sixth-century manuscript now in Vienna, is the second primary Latin translation.
  Up to the seventeenth century we find many commentaries and inferior later manuscripts such as Liber Dioscuridis de herbis feminis by Sextus Placitus Papyriensis. Dioscorides Lombardus was one of the source documents (with 22 others) for the celebrated botanical poem Macer floridus of 1161 by Odo of Meune. He recounts the virtues of 77 plants in verse dedicated to Aemilius Macer, a contemporary and friend of Ovid. Dioscorides Vulgaris led to a number of further versions, one with Anglo-Saxon glossaries.'
  
  We should look at all the mentioned documents which likely predate the VM and compare illustrations. However there must have been even more inferior copies. The major Dioscorides copies were treasures which would not have been lent to a common scribe to copy from it for prolonged periods of time. I believe this was another reason to split text and illustrations. Rather than having to borrow a precious illustrated book, thus making it inaccessible to others, a copyist would acquire text fragments and consult image collections to compile a new book over a long period of time. This way several scribes could work on the same book. without obstructing each other. Each worked on his text and images. This explains why, despite the strong similarities in imagery, the main Dioscorides copies differ in composition and ordering. Some things were omitted, either because the text was not available or deemed unimportant, other things were added. The VM likely was compiled in the same process. Different persons worked on different source texts with or without images plus extra stock images plus own interpretation. The VM may have been extreme in this regard but overall the creation process probably was less unusual than we think.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 19-06-2024, 07:56 PM

  Bernd, see here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
  Rene provided a large list of manuscripts and I added some notes to some of them, mostly from Minta Collins' Medieval Herbals. She suggests that Chigi F.VII.159 could have been intended as a model book.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Bernd > 21-06-2024, 07:05 PM

  Thanks, Koen, I am digging through all the sources!
  My preliminary conclusion is that while some Dioscorides plants appear to have influenced the VM, there are barely matches for flowers and roots. Generally VM flowers and roots are more prominent than those in the Dioscorides copies.
  
  Here's a rare exception of a big flower from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  An inspiration for the strange 'artichoke' flower in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? 
  
     
  
  I find the blue and red coloration of the inflorescence curious even if the colors are swapped in the VM example. Also the plants both have 3 leaves on each side. The leaf and root shape however doesn't match at all.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 21-06-2024, 09:57 PM

  It does have similar components. What even is that in the Paris MS?
  
  Regarding the roots, I think it's likely that the VM makers often did their own thing there and disregarded their example, whether it be a plant or a plant drawing. One of the most famous parallels, the "oak and ivy" from the Manfredus herbal, also does not match the VM plant in its roots. 
  
  What's going on with the flowers is harder to say. As you know, the flower type does not always belong with the leaf type. So who knows what they did there and why...

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 22-06-2024, 06:02 AM

  (21-06-2024, 09:57 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What even is that in the Paris MS?

  
  Hi Koen,
  the title in red and the first black word seem to read ΧΑΜΑΙΛεωΝ ΛεΥκός, χαμαιλεων λευκός, white "khamaileon". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which looks correct, or at least very plausible. In the right margin there's a Latin annotation that I find hard to read: "cameleo[n]ta[?] alba".

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Ruby Novacna > 22-06-2024, 06:42 PM

  (22-06-2024, 06:02 AM)MarcoP ' Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Carlina gummifera, Chamaeleon gummifer, which looks correct, or at least very plausible.

  This could explain the very large size of the flower, because Carlina does not have a stem.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Bernd > 23-06-2024, 12:38 AM

  Indeed, it's closely relatet to artichokes but poisinous. Another example of the confusion of different names for the same plant. To make things worse, there are often a myriad of spelling variants in different versions of the same manuscript.
  
  

  Quote:Ixion is what according to Dyascorides many people have called cameleunta, the white as well as the black one.

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  I haven't found a homologous illustration of chamaileon in other Dioscorides copies, they look more like ordinary thistles.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.inscribed chamaileon leukos is also identified as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. inscribed chamaileon melas is identified as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  Same in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  
  Another possible match between Dioscorides and VM is the strange fern-like plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
     
  
     
  
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  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
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  Not the same plant (what is it actually?) but look at the roots! It also bears some resemblance to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
     
  
  
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• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  ReneZ > 23-06-2024, 02:26 AM

  The illustration in the Munich MS refers to cedrus and cedria.
  The Greek name is Kedros. (κέδρος)
  Cedria is the name of a resin obtained from the tree.
  
  Personally, and subjectively, I find that quite a good match for the Voynich MS page f14v.
  
  See this page (in Spanish), referring to another interesting resource: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 23-06-2024, 09:05 AM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. one can access a transcription of the Latin Dioscorides Munich BSB Clm 337 - Konrad Hofmann, T. M. Auracher, "Der Langobardische Dioskorides des Marcellus Virgilius: Dioscorides Langobardus <Cod. Lat. Monacensis 337>", 1882 (probably one of the sources used by Ethel Voynich in her notebooks). The book is available in both pdf and txt formats. Cedrum is at p.87. In 1518, the Florentine Marcellus Virgilius published a Latin translation of Dioscorides largely based on the ms now in Munich.
  
  Though there are several OCR errors, copy and paste from the txt file results in a decent translation via ChatGPT:
  
  

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  ChatGPT Wrote:About the cedar and cedar oil:
  
  The cedar is the source of cedar oil.
  
  It is useful if it is dense, clear, and has a stronger odor. When you dip your finger in it, the drop slides off with its own oiliness. Its virtue is such that if you put other living things into it, they decay and die. The bodies of the dead, if preserved in it, are protected from decay, which is why it is called the life of the dead. It withstands its own excessive heat for a long time and remains intact, and it clears the mist from the eyes. It cleanses glaucoma and scars when applied, and when mixed and infused with vinegar, it kills earworms. Mixed with hyssop juice, it prevents hearing noises in the ears. Applied to aching teeth, it makes them crack; held in the mouth for a long time, it relieves tooth pain. If you apply it to the genitals before intercourse, it contracts them, preventing conception. It cures inflammation and tumors if rubbed inside the throat. It kills lice and nits when applied, counters snake bites when drunk with salt and sweetness, and heals rabbit bites. It is effective for treating scrofulous swellings when applied, heals lung wounds when drunk, kills worms and ascarids when added to enemas, and expels embryos.
  
  Many collect oil from cedar cones as they do from pine, producing as much as from the pine itself. It benefits animals with scabies and lice and is useful for treating wounds. Its smoke is as potent as that of the pine resin.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 23-06-2024, 11:50 AM

  The way the two side branches bend out and in even reminds a bit of the "oak and ivy" in the VM, another "woody" plant with a similarly woody root.
  
  Now in the hypothetical case that the parallels we are pointing out in this thread are meaningful, and based on some source the VM makers consulted... What kind of source is that most likely to be? Is there even a plausible answer? A Latin Dioscorides with an unusual amount of Greek left in its DNA?
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