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f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
- f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
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f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Koen G > 09-06-2024, 05:23 PM
While preparing my paper for VM day, I was browsing the Dioscorides manuscript Chig.F.VII.159. By coincidence, I noticed something unrelated, but remarkable.
When I got to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I noticed how this plant has several different leaf shapes on the same plant. One of these leaf shapes is a singular lobe attached immediately to the stem. I marked a few of them with arrows:
The reason why this looked familiar to me is that not so long ago Cary and I have been studying VM large plant features, and one of the rarer features exclusive to Herbal A is that it can have two drastically different leaf shapes on the same plant. And I distinctly remembered one of those plants having the same kind of silly little lobe attached to the stem.
So I recalled this little leaf from memory, but I couldn't quite remember what the rest of this plant looked like, so I went to look it up. It's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ... What do its other leaves look like?
Now I know that the range of leaf shapes and arrangements in the Chigi Dioscorides MS is much more varied, but still. I find it very remarkable that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is one of the few plants where the VM explicitly includes two very different leaf shapes, both of which appear in the Dioscorides plant. The way they attach to the stalks is also very similar. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Koen G > 10-06-2024, 10:43 AM
Another example from the Dioscorides, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. It shows a plant growing from a bulb, with little green leaves growing from the points where the large leaves attach to the stem. This is similar to VM You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . In both cases, the leaves attach to the stem in a sheathing manner (I am just using words that will do until Bernd or someone else with more knowledge about proper terminology corrects them
).
I think this shows two things:
* On the one hand, the VM drawings reveal awareness of botanical reality, getting details right about the way plants grow and/or connecting to other manuscript traditions.
* On the other hand, the VM seems to absolutely on purpose deviate from natural and/or artistic examples by adding weird nonsense to them, like this weird flower or whatever it is that's attached to those leaves.
This explains why there often are disagreements about the truthfulness of VM plants. Some will call them fantastic and otherworldly, while others will claim that they can rival the most naturalistic of medieval traditions. I think both are true at the same time, and we cannot say one without acknowledging the other. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Aga Tentakulus > 10-06-2024, 11:09 AM
The idea of cut flowers in people's heads is not exactly the best prerequisite.
Just Google, look at flowers and pictures.
When do conifers have flowers. (Rosemary).
It doesn't have to be a fir tree.
When flowers pop straight out of the stem. Strange, but it was.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Aga Tentakulus > 10-06-2024, 11:18 AM
Found.
If flowers grow directly from tree trunks, then other things are also possible.
Just have a look around. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
ReneZ > 10-06-2024, 11:45 AM
Minta Collins has quite a bit to say about Vat. Chigi F.VII 159, most of which very interesting, though it may not be immediately helpful.
She argues that the MS may well be from around 1406 or shortly after. It should be quite similar to the Vienna Dioscurides, and Morgan 652.
Here is the Morgan MS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
For the Vienna Dioscurides, I think I have a link but I will need to search a bit more.
Edit: numerous (but far from all) illustrations here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It seems worthwhile to check if the particular details found by Koen can also be seen in (one of) these two MSS. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Koen G > 10-06-2024, 07:41 PM
Some additional observations:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so ring-like on roots in other MSS
Also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has strikingly similar components to VM You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , even though the plants appear different. Weird spiky thing, similar leaves...
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RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Ruby Novacna > 10-06-2024, 08:50 PM
LSJ: ἀνδράχνη, ἡ, purslane, Portulaca oleracea, what is written on the right of picture: portulaca agrestis -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
Bernd > 10-06-2024, 09:35 PM
Excellent finds!!
How likely is it that these images are analogues meaning they evolved independently from another? I find it quite likely that these plants in the Dioscorides and the VM are homologues meaning they were copied from the same source.
Note that while the plants do match well, the flowers do not.
I totally agree with Koen, there's a peculiar mixture of realistic and fantastic freats but this is found in other contemporary herbals a well - to the point of making the plant utterly unrecognizable. I am also convinced that many VM plants are composites of root-stem-flower copied from different sources or outright inventions of the author.
Also there is something odd about VM You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has similarities to Dioscorides, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. The bulb tunic splits and crosses the lowest leaves of the plant. In the VM this is interpreted as strange appendages to the leaves themselves. What is D You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. supposed to be? I read Eleborus but it doesn't look like a hellebore at all, not even remotely.
There are surprising matches of certain exotic features of VM plants in other herbals as well, I'll make an extra topic. -
RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves
ReneZ > 11-06-2024, 02:07 AM
(10-06-2024, 07:41 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some additional observations:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so ring-like on roots in other MSS
Also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has strikingly similar components to VM You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , even though the plants appear different. Weird spiky thing, similar leaves...
This image from the Vienna Dioscurides has something similar, though it seems to be a different herb again:
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Edit: and here is the 'Malva':
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