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f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

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• f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 23-06-2024, 04:19 PM

  I guess coincidentally similar layout, but still suggestive. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  The Munich illustration is about Ecballium elaterium, also called the squirting cucumber. The illustration is about inducing vomit by an extract from the fruit. I cannot read the marginal note above the illustration, it likely refers to the previous chapter which appears to be about the same plant.
  
  Latin text and ChatGPT translation:
  
  

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  Hofmann and Auracher Wrote:De elaterio. Elateriun sucus est cucumeris agrestis, non foliorum aut radieis eius. sed maturi eligendi sunt, ut puncti
  10 possint humorem mittere. qui cucumeres collecti una nocte dimittendi sunt, et alia die eiribru super uas ponis, in quo cucumeres supräscriptos ponis, et singulos acu pungis, et pannu pressi exucantur, et expressi alio uaso mittendi sunt, et si secundu elateriu facere uelis, aqua missa iterum ex<s>ucantur.
  15 quod sucus in sole positus siccatur. maxime secundum est suprascriptum et‘) aqua ipsa siccanda est, ut quod necessariu est, residat, et in || |124c] mortario missum siecandum est, unde et troeisei fiant, et aceipiet uirtutem similem suprascripto. multi uere eitius uolunt aqua ipsa liquare tertia ipsa in sole dimittunt
  20 et pinicillo colligunt aqua. multi uero pro aqua dulce aqua maritima mittunt, et cum exsiccatus fuerit, mulsa iterum mittunt et labant. et iterum siccant et sie trociscos faciunt. sucus ipse utilis est albus, lenis, humectus, leuis. et amaro gustu et lucernae aplieitus eito igneseit, his est utilis. uiridis uero et non lenis et asper et colori in utili et quasi einere et graue, inutilis est, qui hec signa habuerit. multi uero et foliorum et cucumeris simul miscunt plurimum adulterantes, eui et amulum miscunt colore albu reddentes duorum annorum elaterium his est utilis ad purgationem uentris, sed suprascriptus sucus primarus bene factus decem annos durare potest. obulus unus datus homines purgat, et dimidiu obulu purgat infantes, nam si plus aceipiatur inferet necem. senibus diseiplina infantum dabis colera et fleuma
  10 uentris deponit, uomitum prouocat, disnoieis medieatur. addito sale et post calda dabis bibenda. || |124d] solutu aqua et penna sub lingua traiectum uomitum facit. quem si forte fortius uomitum uelis ut facias, addes ei oleu yrinu, et loca suprascripta traieis. sane illis, qui uirtutes eius purgantur, dormire non ad-
  15 mittendi sunt, aut si prouoeito uomito nimie uomuerint, aqua frigida conpescendus est et pulenta et posca et mala matiana et omnia, quae stringere possunt, dabis. menstruis acceptus imperat, abortum faeit. lacte mixtus et naribus missus ieterieis prodest, dolorem capitis a<n>tiquam mitigat, sinanticis inunetus
  20 medicatur; maxime addito oleo aut melle aut fele taurino uirtus augetur. radix cucumeris hortini duo obuli accepti cum mulsa post cena uolentibus nausia prouocat.

  
  

  ChatGPT Wrote:On Elaterium
  Elaterium is the juice extracted from the wild cucumber, not from its leaves or roots. Only mature cucumbers should be chosen to extract the juice, as they are able to release moisture. The collected cucumbers should be left overnight and the next day placed on a sieve over a container. Each cucumber is pierced with a needle, and the juice is pressed out using cloths and collected in another vessel. If a second batch of elaterium is needed, water can be added to the remaining cucumbers, which are then pressed again. The collected juice should be dried in the sun. The second batch, with the water evaporated, leaves a residue necessary for further use, which is then dried in a mortar, resulting in a product similar to the previously mentioned elaterium.
  
  Some prefer to let the juice evaporate in the sun three times, collecting the residue with a brush. Others add seawater instead of fresh water and mix the dried residue with honey, then wash and dry it again to make troches. The juice itself is useful when it is white, smooth, moist, light, and has a bitter taste. Applied to a lamp, it ignites quickly, indicating its utility. However, if the juice is green, rough, and ashy, it is not useful, indicating poor quality.
  
  Many adulterate the juice by mixing it with cucumber leaves and adding starch to make it appear white, which is beneficial for purging the stomach. Properly made elaterium can last ten years. A single obolus (a small coin) dose can purge an adult, while half an obolus can purge a child, but an overdose can be fatal. For elderly patients, it helps reduce bile and phlegm, induces vomiting, and treats insomnia when mixed with salt and given warm to drink. Dissolved in water and applied under the tongue with a feather, it induces vomiting, and if a stronger effect is needed, olive oil is added and the solution applied to the same area.
  
  Patients undergoing treatment should not be allowed to sleep, and if they vomit excessively, they should be given cold water, porridge, vinegar, and firm foods to restrain them. For menstrual regulation, it induces abortion when mixed with milk and applied to the nose, alleviates jaundice, reduces headaches when applied externally, and treats synantisis when mixed with oil, honey, or ox bile.
  
  The root of the garden cucumber, when two oboli are taken with honey after dinner, can induce nausea for those desiring it.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 24-06-2024, 05:56 PM

  I see what you mean, Marco. The similar arrangement of substance, vessel and reclining patient in the margin is very striking. And at the same time we can say with some confidence that the treatment is different, given the apparent topical application of the substance to the patient's stomach.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Bernd > 24-06-2024, 07:33 PM

  (24-06-2024, 05:56 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.apparent topical application of the substance to the patient's stomach.

  I would not go that far. The figure has a hand on the stomach. It might mean a lot of different things.
  So far no luck finding similar illustrations in other Dioscorides or derived manuscripts.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 24-06-2024, 08:08 PM

  (24-06-2024, 07:33 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would not go that far. The figure has a hand on the stomach. It might mean a lot of different things.

  
  I believe that what Marco showed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a strong argument for topical application of the yellow stuff as the leading hypothesis.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  MarcoP > 24-06-2024, 08:33 PM

  In the Alchemical Herbal (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), there's an example of a plaster upon the belly, so this practice is documented elsewhere.
  
  Item si quis haberet vermes in corpore, accipe de ista herba et pistetur et emplastretur supra ventrem: omnes vermes morientur et egredientur inferius, et hoc est probatum.
  
  Also, if anyone had worms in their body: take this herb and crush it, then plaster it on the belly; all the worms will die and come out from below, and this is proven.
     
  
  

  ---

  
  
  EDIT: This is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (8th Century):
  
  167. Ad Combustum. Polenta cum aqua subacta et adposita sanat.
  
  
  For Burns. Porridge (polenta/pulenta) mixed with water and applied heals.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 25-06-2024, 10:36 PM

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  Weird rayed daisy on similarly structured plant???
  
     

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Bernd > 26-06-2024, 06:48 PM

  I've seen this one but could not make much sense of it. Now that you mention it there are some similarities.
  I'm not good at reading Greek, the top seems to say ὀπός meaning plant juice or sap.
  The bottom χύλισμα meaning extract or extracted plant juice. I can't read the plant name.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Koen G > 26-06-2024, 07:02 PM

  The word in red says PEUKEDANON, but this looks nothing like this plant.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  bi3mw > 26-06-2024, 07:34 PM

  (26-06-2024, 06:48 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't read the plant name.

  
  ChatGPT recognizes the plant as chamomile.
  
  
  For comparison:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Cod. Med. gr. 1 (Faks.), fol. 31v : Wiener Dioskurides; Byzanz, um 512
  
     
  
  The flower could be right, but otherwise it doesn't fit.

• RE: f18v...Dioscorides...something about those leaves

  Juan_Sali > 26-06-2024, 11:22 PM

  (26-06-2024, 07:02 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The word in red says PEUKEDANON, but this looks nothing like this plant.

  According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : The name of the genus derives from the Greek
  peukedanon, which was the Greek name given by Dioscorides and
  Pliny to P. officinale and related species.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., there are 3 plants P. officinalis, the one that matches better is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Koen G. You compared the plant with the VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but I think that it is closer to the VMS f40r, both plants are in the same folio, maybe it is not casual
     
  
  If the VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is also a PEUKEDAMON the one that better maches would be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is a detail of the roots: The root of the male is about a finger thick and a span long; Its flavor is astringent, white. Those of the female have lateral shoots like acorns, seven or eight, like the asphodel.
  This description of the roots can be applied to the roots of the VMS f40v?
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