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The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

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  • [Article] The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm
• The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 27-01-2024, 12:39 PM

  (26-01-2024, 03:34 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ok, so if I understand correctly the spaces are not real spaces but a way to hide and obfuscate the real meaning.
  
  Well, it's possible and if I recall correclty it was considered by some people before.
  
  And it was used in practice, after all Wikipedia says in its basic article about ciphers:
  
  Usually the ciphertext is written out in blocks of fixed length, omitting punctuation and spaces; this is done to disguise word boundaries from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and to help avoid transmission errors. These blocks are called "groups", and sometimes a "group count" (i.e. the number of groups) is given as an additional check. Five-letter groups are often used, dating from when messages used to be transmitted by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
  
  SIAAZ QLKBA VAZOA RFPBL UAOAR
  
  But there must be some fixed rule how to remove this spaces.
  If you start to join and break vords (Voynich words) free at will then your solution becomes very ambiguous and two different people reading the same text may get a very different solution.

  
  Table 2 is a way to build the structure and spaces. Once we realize, a sequence of letters, is repeating in many pages. When the sequence maps to some meanings in dictionary and we can identify a few sentences without problems with that sequence, I believe it can become a key for next untranslated paragraphs.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  nablator > 27-01-2024, 03:28 PM

  (27-01-2024, 12:23 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It requires a loop for rule 2 and should start again from beginning of line each time after removing. So that, if y is removed the t won't be left behind.

  
  Paragraph or line? Your colored cells PDF shows entire paragraphs being processed.
  
  

  Quote:By specific region I mean a letter or a sequence of letters inside a word, if we imagine a symmetry line, two repeated elements are placed in two sides of the inner segment (sometimes even mirrored).

  
  How can two repeated elements in a word not be placed on two sides of the inner segment?
  
  The two 'D' in words like, for example:
  
  (p.16)
  P'.A'.T.D.T'.S.D.T"
  
  (p.20)
  D.RI.T.D.T'
  PA.D.S.D.A.T'.V
  D.A'.D.H
  K.D.RI.J.D.T'
  
  get removed. It looks like they can be anywhere and the inner segment can be anything.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 27-01-2024, 03:34 PM

  (26-01-2024, 10:18 AM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So can you explain with an example, step-by-step, how the author converted a sentence of correct Persian into Voynichese, and how the reader then converts Voynichese back into the correct Persian?

  This is how it can be explained to some degrees "There was an early text which its letters were replaced by unfamiliar forms. Word's spaces have been removed and cuts have been made in different parts of the text. Finally, repeated elements have been added to the word-like parts and repeated features have been given to the lines". There are even more to consider. I was reading a book Tārīkh-e zabān-e fārsī or History of Farsi language (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) in pages 89 - 90 it is written about difficultly of reading Pahlavi Script in which some of its letters have multiple sounds, it also mentions words called هزاوارش; people had written some Aramaic words with Pahlavi Script, but when it was time of reading they would read it in Middle Persian. If Voynich manuscript has methods of writing similar to the old times, reading correctly would be extremely difficult. 
  
  Hopefully, to what I see, most words will appear if we simply type it in dictionary, and it doesn't seem that old. The repeats are the most challenging, and I can't really figure out why many different meanings will appear. Did author want to convey all meanings appearing after each layer of removing, or are the words just random results, and only one layer contains the real writing?
  
  The example can be next sentence from f1v, the attempt of dfs346 created words. It didn't start from beginning of the paragraph, and it was without application of rules, but two verbs ( آرد and درید) were recognizable, if having a table for coded verbs, similar to table 2. One may understand: and to you...brings..auspicious...it cuts head lentil etc (A fragmentary translation, which is altogether unintelligible). What happens if we remove the disturbing elements? It will be an understandable sentence:
  
  RI.A'.H.V, A'.D.S.A.M, D.T', D.T', P.A'.T.V, A'.A. R, GA.A.R, A.T", V, P.T.T.V, A'.A.R, D.R, D.A'.V, S.A'.D, T'.RI.D, S.V, D.RI.D.S.A.R, A'.D.S.V, S.D, RIA.V, RIA.D, RIA.V, J.V, S.RI.J.T.T.V, PA.V, RI.D.P.A'.D.S.V, S.A.T', S.D.T', A'.D.RI.T.D, S.A.M.R, S.A.T", H.D, A'.T.V, A'.D, RI.D.S.V( ... ریاهو ا دسام دت دت پاتو اار قاارات )
  
  After the Application of Rule 1& 2:
  RI.A'.H.V, A'.D.S.A.M , P.A'.T.V, A', GA, A.T", P.T, A, V, S.A', T'.RI, S.V, D.RI.D.S.A.R, A'.D.S.V, S.D, V, D, J, S.RI.J.T, PA, RI.D.P.A'.D.S, A, A'.D.RI.T, M.R, T", H.D, T.V, D, RI.D.S.V
  
  
  Reading with help of tables:
  
  RI.A'.H.V, A'.D.S.A.M , P.A'.T.V, A', GA, A.T", P.T, A, V, S.A', T'.RI, S.V, D.RI.D.S.A.R, A'.D.S.V, S.D ...
  
  
  RIA HVADS AMPAT VAGAAT P TAVS ATRI SVD RIDS ARAD SVS
  
  ریع حوادث انبات واقعات ب تاوش عطری شود You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Words of second sentence are linked to abadis.ir dictionary
   For verb Arad (آYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) it is literary form of the verb آورد from infinitive آوردن and it is not provided in dictionary but present in works such as Shahnameh, a verb search result from ganjoor.net is linked that is a website for Persian literature works.
  
  Now to explain step by step how it was created we can go backwards:
  
  ریع حوادث انبات واقعات ب تاوش عطری شود ریزش آرد شوش (the early text)
  
  RIA' HVA'DS AMPA'T VA'GAAT" P TAVS A'T'RI SVD RIDS ARA'D SVS (replaced by unfamiliar forms)
  
  RIA'HVA'DSAMPA'TVA'GAAT"PTAVSA'T'RISVDRIDSARA'DSVS (word's spaces have been removed)
  
  RIA'HV[Cut]A'DSAM[Cut]PA'TV[Cut]A'[Cut]GA[Cut]AT"[Cut]PT[Cut]A[Cut]V[Cut]SA'[Cut]T'RI[Cut]SV[Cut]DRIDSAR[Cut]A'DSV[Cut]SD[Cut] ... (cuts have been made)
  
  RIA'HV A'DSAM DT' DT' PA'TV A'AR GAAR AT" V PTTV A'AR DR DA'V SA'D T'RID SV DRIDSAR A'DSV SD ... (repeated elements have been added to the word-like parts; with rules and in layers)

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 27-01-2024, 03:50 PM

  (27-01-2024, 03:28 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (27-01-2024, 12:23 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It requires a loop for rule 2 and should start again from beginning of line each time after removing. So that, if y is removed the t won't be left behind.

  
  Paragraph or line? Your colored cells PDF shows entire paragraphs being processed.
  
  

  Quote:By specific region I mean a letter or a sequence of letters inside a word, if we imagine a symmetry line, two repeated elements are placed in two sides of the inner segment (sometimes even mirrored).

  
  How can two repeated elements in a word not be placed on two sides of the inner segment?
  
  The two 'D' in words like, for example:
  
  (p.16)
  P'.A'.T.D.T'.S.D.T"
  
  (p.20)
  D.RI.T.D.T'
  PA.D.S.D.A.T'.V
  D.A'.D.H
  K.D.RI.J.D.T'
  
  get removed. It looks like they can be anywhere and the inner segment can be anything.

  
  Paragraphs in general. Thanks, it is edited now.
  
  I can't find the word P'.A'.T.D.T'.S.D.T" in paragraph 16. Could you tell me the folio number for all these words?
  
  Yes, in this case maybe they shouldn't be removed or it might be created by a random selection of the segment:
  For D position in ( K.D.RI | J.D.T' ) we can consider an inner segment RI.J with imaginary symmetry-line between RI and J which is also a line halving letter positions for the entire word (we can see 3 letters on each side)
  But, for something like ( D.RI | T.D.T'  ), the inner segment is RI.T and imaginary symmetry-line of D is not placed at the word's halving-line (we have 2 letters on the left and 3 letters on the right side), we can say it is like a program that selects a random segment.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  nablator > 27-01-2024, 09:18 PM

  (27-01-2024, 03:50 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't find the word P'.A'.T.D.T'.S.D.T" in paragraph 16. Could you tell me the folio number for all these words?

  Page 15 and 16, first word of paragraph 4. The two D's are marked for removal on green background at the bottom of page 16.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 27-01-2024, 10:49 PM

  (27-01-2024, 09:18 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (27-01-2024, 03:50 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't find the word P'.A'.T.D.T'.S.D.T" in paragraph 16. Could you tell me the folio number for all these words?

  Page 15 and 16, first word of paragraph 4. The two D's are marked for removal on green background at the bottom of page 16.

  Yes, I see. Thanks. ( P'.A'.T.D.T' | S.D.T" ), the inner segment is T'.S and the imaginary symmetry-line for D is not same as the word's halving-line (we have 5 letters on the left and 3 letters on the right side).

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 31-01-2024, 12:15 PM

  (27-01-2024, 03:34 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.RI.A'.H.V, A'.D.S.A.M , P.A'.T.V, A', GA, A.T", P.T, A, V, S.A', T'.RI, S.V, D.RI.D.S.A.R, A'.D.S.V, S.D ...
  
  
  RIA HVADS AMPAT VAGAAT P TAVS ATRI SVD RIDS ARAD SVS
  
  
  ریع حوادث انبات واقعات ب تاوش عطری شود ریزش آرد شوش

  (ریزش) defines as falling, and abscission in botany, like in hair loss (ریزش مو) or flower abscission (ریزش گل). (شوش) is defined as a thin green branch of tree.
  
  With dictionary output it will be translated to: Increase/growth of accidents, growth of incidents, with heat/radiation it will be fragrant. The thin branch brings abscission.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  dfs346 > 31-01-2024, 03:38 PM

  Here are some further thoughts on Persian as a precursor language.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: The Emergence of a Possible Coded Vocabulary After the Application of an Algorithm

  Pardis Motiee > 22-03-2024, 10:41 AM

  (31-01-2024, 03:38 PM)dfs346 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here are some further thoughts on Persian as a precursor language.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  What was missed in the further thoughts here, was the omission of repeating elements. It was mentioned in your writings that almost all different combinations of the Persian alphabet can be found as a word in the dictionary, and left-to-right text was counted questionable for the language. In response, I would say that although Persian is written right-to-left using the current Persian alphabet, writing left-to-right is completely possible for Iranian and Persian languages. The Old Persian (Cuneiform) was originally left-to-right, and now as I write this, people in Tajikistan write their Persian dialect left-to-right in the Cyrillic alphabet, and many young people write in a kind of Pinglish style that is much harder to read than Voynich manuscript itself. Writing and calligraphy are only a way to write down what we say, and when written in cipher, it can even be written vertically or from different directions. It seems a false assumption that any combination of alphabets gives a result in the dictionary. In Persian, as in other languages, words have their own Phonotactic constraints and it is impossible to make words without considering them, and combinations outside these rules do not exist in the dictionary. Apart from this, the word construction for Voynich manuscript is possible with any language, but it is the combination of words that should convey meaning to the reader.
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