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Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

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  • Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
• Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  RobGea > 20-02-2022, 09:28 PM

  If one looks at the Middle left rosette there are similar blue scuff marks.
  I think that the shapes containing the blue scuff marks are windows
  and the blue scuff marks represent the sky (perhaps to save paint).
  
  As Koen pointed out in post#1,
  "Conceptually, we can probably assume this scene takes place either in the sky or in the heavenly realm (or both)."
  Then as in the middle left rosette the 'curved dabs of blue paint' could represent the sky.
  
  The detail could be an artistic device to convey the notion that the sky is a canopy
  i.e the detail is guy ropes and such like.
  
  Or
  
  I'm just throwing this out there, the detail represents the Milky way.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Mark Knowles > 21-02-2022, 11:43 AM

         

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Mark Knowles > 21-02-2022, 05:11 PM

     

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Mark Knowles > 22-02-2022, 10:45 AM

  Two stylised metal leaves and a metal button connecting them.

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Koen G > 24-02-2022, 11:33 AM

  Elaborating on Cvetka's idea of a monstrance, I think the overall shape of the detail is more similar to the symmetrical way they often drew chalices and lidless ciboriums. The style I circled below is quite common:
  
     
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ca. 1400 German).

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Tobias > 02-03-2022, 09:34 AM

  I know, its uncommon and doesn't really fit with the overall style of the MS, but maybe somethin vaguely like this? (depiction of an angel in the Hagia Sophia)
  

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  Barbrey > 30-08-2023, 03:23 AM

  I find it difficult sometimes to isolate one rosette and interpret it without referring to others, because my interpretation is dependent on the entire diagram. Thus, what seems like a mere "guess" has some support towards a hypothesis when my theory about the whole page is taken into account! Let me try anyway:
  
  This sphere, to me, is the Animalus/Corpus sphere of the diagram. The centre is a clot of dirt/earth. The "tail" above represents a swallowtail-type representing a bird, the "tail" below a fish tail. It would be helpful if the two did not look so much like! But much about the VMS is to me about transformation, what's above, so below, so perhaps not inconsistent with theme. We therefore have symbolic representations of air, land (including human) and water animals co-existing in a dial that when moved can transform one to another.
  
  The cloudband is not merely a cloudband when it is closed. I've seen these closed squiggled cloudbands before, they often signify the ouroboros, the corpus or body. The bumpiness is also echoed in some of the tubes our bathers hold up. The ones that look like octopus legs!
  
  Outside the band are what look like stones. I interpret these as the inanimate bodies on the surface of the earth (as opposed to the metals and minerals existing in the sphere below), but Im really just reaching on this one.
  
  Basically, my overall theory is that the top row spheres represent the heavens (including genesis, the zodiac, the "kingdom" and the Mind of God)), the middle row (not including the cosmos at centre) spheres the earth, Human Soul on left, Animal Body at right, and the bottom row the Cthonic, borrowing heavily from Greco-Roman myth which saw the underworld not just as Hades/Pluto/Hell, but from whence the "seeds" of plants came and where the buried treasures - metals, mines, elements - resided. Thus from left to right Throne/Judgment/Time/Death, Vegetalis/Rebirth, and Mineralis/Foundation.
  
  The outside of the nine spheres is also revealing, super-celestial, borrowing this time from the god/matter philosophies of ancient Greece - Aristotle, Plato, etc.
  
  No, this is not some weird Tarot reading! There are a number of diagrams from this time period that don't look exactly like this page but categorize very closely to it. Llull's Ladder is the simplest and can be easily googled for the main categories, though imo there are many additional layers to each sphere on relational and metaphorical levels. But the division of the cosmos into super-celestial, celestial, earthly and cthonic/underworld was a common understanding of the medieval world. I don't have to stretch at all seeing this diagram as fitting broadly into this strata. I do have to stretch on the details of the spheres, but the more I research, the more it comes together. Unfortunately my research is based on medieval text not illustration, so I have few example diagrams to refer you to.
  
  What I like about this theory is that you slowly realize (or at least I did) that the diagram serves as an index to the rest of the VMS. It pulls all the sections together into the Cosmos at the centre, and each sphere likely corresponded to a section of the manuscript. Somewhat Aristotelian: On the Soul, On Plants, On Metals/Minerals (possibly a missing section), On Creation, On the Stars, On Death, and, of course Koen you know me!, On the Water of Life.

• RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).

  cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 30-08-2023, 08:20 PM

  (24-02-2022, 11:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Elaborating on Cvetka's idea of a monstrance, I think the overall shape of the detail is more similar to the symmetrical way they often drew chalices and lidless ciboriums. The style I circled below is quite common:
  
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ca. 1400 German).

  
  Hi, Koen,
  
  It is true that the simple chalices and ciboriums are most frequent in the medieval manuscripts, particularly those who were critical of the official church and its extravaganza. I believe that most fancy pharmaceutical containers were designed for Roman religious service. If the author was a Carthusian from the region of ancient Austrian province of Carniola, he would have been motivated to design the church vessels for Frederic of Celje who was a great patron of Carthusain monasteries and who was at the time engaged in building new Churches. This might have nothing to do with the way the monk felt about the fancy containers.
  As you already pointed out in your post, he depicted a plant as a chalice. There is only one chalice in the pharmaceutical section that stands out and looks like monstrance. It looks like it is standing on top of the ordinary chalice. When I first noticed it, I was wondering why would the author of the VM depict the monstrance if he did not believe in the relics and icons. Monstrance is a fancy container where a large host or a relic of a saint is placed for adoration.  
  I believe that the author wanted to point out the origin of the sacrament of the Holy Communion which started with the prophets who were the spokespeople for God in the Old Testament, and continued with Jesus who is regarded as the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophets.
     
  The fact that the monstrance is placed on top of the chalice has a special meaning: while ordinary Christians get a watered-down version of the 'mystery', the genuine mystic experiences what the mystics call 'unification with God' or a mystical death, which led them to the proper understanding of the biblical writing.
  While bread and wine represent symbolic sharing to improve existential life, the genuine artists (in all faiths) are updating the advice for spiritual well-being.
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