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Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
- Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
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RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
CaryR > 18-02-2022, 08:45 PM
(18-02-2022, 07:37 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Two whales meeting under a blow-out
Well, they do remind me of fish tails, and normally "two fish tails" would bring to mind some reference to Pisces, but this doesn't fit with any pisces-related motif I've ever seen... (and also with Pisces symbols it's the whole fish, not just the tail). -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
radapox > 18-02-2022, 08:55 PM
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RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Searcher > 18-02-2022, 08:56 PM
I characterised it as a pool of bubbles, like boiling water. A little later I will find an image which is quite similar to its double-end center and place in the next post. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Koen G > 18-02-2022, 09:10 PM
(18-02-2022, 08:55 PM)radapox Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could the center thingy be God's eye inside a cloud?
Maybe.. I really have no idea. Was God's eye already a thing before 1450? I can't think of any manuscript examples either.
Searcher: that is an interesting idea, it would explain the way the blue paint is applied. But why is a pool of bubbles surrounded by a cloud band? The reason why I labour the point of the cloud band is that at least we know and recognize this symbol from other manuscripts. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Searcher > 18-02-2022, 09:13 PM
(18-02-2022, 09:10 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher: that is an interesting idea, it would explain the way the blue paint is applied. But why is a pool of bubbles surrounded by a cloud band? The reason why I labour the point of the cloud band is that at least we know and recognize this symbol from other manuscripts.
Boiling water and steam, maybe? -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
davidjackson > 18-02-2022, 09:20 PM
The lines from the centre continue out to the sides of the image, they are depicting some sort of inner boundary.
The lines "may" be an attempt at perspective. Which would make the central rosette a mountain or tower or something high.
The dot in the very centre is probably caused by the compass that drew the circles, as I showed in my analysis of the size of the circles (which is somewhere on the forum, can't find it right now).
Are those two letter Vords at the top in several parts of the wolkenband? There are several of them, I've never noticed them before.
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f86_ins_ros&q=f86_ins_ros-...88-36-43-3]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f86_ins_ros&q=f86_ins_ros-1566.63916015625-808.0709838867188-36-43-3)
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f86_ins_ros&q=f86_ins_ros-...4-117-39-3]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f86_ins_ros&q=f86_ins_ros-1597.63916015625-784.7073669433594-117-39-3)
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RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
MichelleL11 > 18-02-2022, 09:31 PM
(18-02-2022, 03:07 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't recall having seen any explanations for this. Has anyone ever seen anything like this elsewhere?
. . . Conceptually, we can probably assume this scene takes place either in the sky or in the heavenly realm (or both). . . .They also used a special method of painting, applying curved dabs of blue paint, maybe suggestive of clouds?
There is also a strange detail of a couple of lines bottom left on the inner circle.
Hi, Koen:
Running with the Revelations theme, I would suggest Revelations 16 (verses 17-21).
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath. 20Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. 21 And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.…
The multitude of large blue circles in the "earthly" realm are a decent representation of hundred pound hail. This, in my opinion, is the most convincing part because there are not that many ways you can represent hundred pound hail (with the artistic abilities of the VM illustrator) and there just aren't that many things these circles could conceivably represent. Certainly not in Revelations . . .
Continuing in the general area of this verse, the center shape might be the seventh bowl of wrath, seen from above. Maybe something like this:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Admittedly this bowl is Islamic and c.1200, so maybe we're stretching too much here -- but it is possible.
And the detail on the lower left is the pouring of its contents into the air by the angel. The two sets of curved lines would then represent the sinking of the mountains (away from the "heavenly" realm). And the jagged stabby blue painting could be the heaving ground (seen from above) due to the great earthquake.
I think it is a bit problematic that it is relatively easy to get this stuff to fit. But it could be because it is what is represented . . .
Just wanted to provide this possibility -- but I am still very equivocal about the whole Revelations approach and need more time to alter my thoughts to be entirely convinced. But there is a way to interpret this Rosette that may be you and Cary see as fitting in to your approach. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
CaryR > 18-02-2022, 09:45 PM
(18-02-2022, 09:31 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But there is a way to interpret this Rosette that may be you and Cary see as fitting in to your approach.
Michelle, this is an interesting perspective, I had not considered this rosette being a view of a bowl or vessel with contents as seen from above. And I think such a perspective is possible and that other parts of the imagery may include views of things as seen from above.
However, I do want to be careful not to run away with the Revelation approach and start trying to link all parts of the Rosettes to Revelation imagery-- because even if it is the case that parts of Revelation are referenced, the intention may not be to include all parts. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Koen G > 18-02-2022, 10:00 PM
David: I'm not sure what you mean, the quality of the selection from the large foldout is really too bad. Do you mean these thing I marked in red here? They are simply a continuation of the lines that connect this roundel to the central one (green arrows).
Michelle: I think the hail is a good possibility. There are also illustrations from other manuscripts to support this. (I can look these up if necessary, but they are easily found in apocalypse MSS).
Like Cary says though, we are doing everything we can to avoid shoehorning everything into an "expected" frame. I have seen too many times how easily people go down that path. That is one of the reasons why I was curious to see if anyone had convincing arguments for an interpretation.
Now, regardless of the context, if the blue circles can be hail, then the thing in the middle may be some other weather phenomenon (radapox was already thinking along those lines). This looks like a weird way to draw thunder or lightning though... -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
MichelleL11 > 18-02-2022, 10:04 PM
(18-02-2022, 09:45 PM)CaryR Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-02-2022, 09:31 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But there is a way to interpret this Rosette that may be you and Cary see as fitting in to your approach.
However, I do want to be careful not to run away with the Revelation approach and start trying to link all parts of the Rosettes to Revelation imagery-- because even if it is the case that parts of Revelation are referenced, the intention may not be to include all parts.
I completely agree. And Revelations has so much bizarre imagery it's like a gold mine for strange visual stuff. It's hard to know when it's not justified and is just "possible."
I am not convinced about any of it yet -- but those blue circles -- hundred pound balls of ice. That one is pretty good to my mind. Especially given how few literal "very large circular blue things in large groupings" a medieval person would have seen or have referenced in literature. But, of course, it could represent something else entirely. Have you and Koen found circles used representatively in this way elsewhere?
On the flip side, maybe there are examples of medieval illustrations of the hail that could be compared. I'll take some time this weekend to poke around and see what I can find. But I guess it could be the only example of where anyone decided to illustrate that part -- there's so much crazy to pick from.