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Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
- Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
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RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
ReneZ > 18-02-2022, 10:17 PM
Strangely, while it doesn't look like a keyhole (lock), this is what this image evokes to me. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Koen G > 18-02-2022, 10:28 PM
(18-02-2022, 10:17 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Strangely, while it doesn't look like a keyhole (lock), this is what this image evokes to me.
Do you mean the whole thing? It kind of reminds me of a key like this one, with two "bits" (that's what they are called apparently).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 18-02-2022, 10:32 PM
(18-02-2022, 03:07 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't recall having seen any explanations for this. Has anyone ever seen anything like this elsewhere? It looks like two "tails" coming out of a central point, but I have no idea what the intention may have been. I'm also not sure if the "tails" angle is a good one, since the outer lines seem to make two half circles towards the cloud bands.
Conceptually, we can probably assume this scene takes place either in the sky or in the heavenly realm (or both). It is probably something you cannot touch when you are on earth, at least that would be the meaning of the cloud band in standard iconography. They also used a special method of painting, applying curved dabs of blue paint, maybe suggestive of clouds?
There is also a strange detail of a couple of lines bottom left on the inner circle.
Hi, Koen, I believe this is very much in line with your idea of Revelation, except that the author of the VM had a different understanding of the Revelation. He regarded Jesus as the Word of God.
Before that circle, I noticed two pathways that contain the images of two triangles touching the circle in the middle. The image looks like two Glagolitic letters, composed of a circle and a triangle, one standing for SLOVO (a letter or a word), and the other for IŽA (house). It has been proposed that the two of these letters next to each other represent the initial for a deity in the medieval Old Church Slavonic letter. In my opinion, the initial stands for the 'house of divine words', assuming that the Bible is where the Holy Words are 'housed'.
The Circle is an ancient symbol for God, and the triangle is a symbol for the Trinity. In one picture, the triangles contain two images: an image of lighted candle in a candle stick, which looks like the symbol of Waldensians, and the other looks like the Prince's Stone, where Carinthians democratically elected their dukes. The ritual was conducted in Carinthian (Slovenian) language which was spoken in ancient Carniola, Slavonia, Carinthia, and parts of present day Switzerland and northern Italy. The ritual in Slovenian language was conducted up to the 1415.
The second 'pathway' shaped with two triangles and a circle contains a church that has been identified by some as Maria Laach Abbey. This was a centre of religion and culture, the earthly house of books, particularly holy and mystical books.
When I first attempted to interpret the image you are wondering about, I was mostly impressed by the cloud band that encircles it. I could not relate the picture to any realistic image, but since the cloud band (as well as the blue colour) is suggestive of a spiritual reality, I regarded that circle as an allusion to a mystical religious experience, a mystical revelation, and the image in a circle as a monstrance. A Monstrance is a church vessel where the Holy Host is displayed for adoration. This is symbolic representation of something invisible, indescribable: the mystical incarnation of Jesus, as a Divine Logos.
In the mystical experience, the human and the divine touch for a brief moment in what the Church calls 'the earthly mystical union with God'. Unlike the Church symbolism, the mystical symbols are God and Trinity, on Earth as in Heaven. For a mystic, in his altered state of mind, nothing else exists, but the inner words of the Revelation. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Koen G > 18-02-2022, 11:05 PM
A monstrance is an interesting possibility. Apparently in manuscript art, there is a tendency to place them in the heavenly realm (google monstrance manuscript for some examples). For example they are sometimes held by angels. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says "ecce panis angelorum", behold the bread of the angels. This concept of "the bread of heaven" may be enough to show it in heaven. Even when the monstrance is held by mere mortals, it is still often presented with a starry background, like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. All of these examples do appear somewhat late for the VM though. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Searcher > 18-02-2022, 11:53 PM
In the thread You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I have noted that the "piscina" (fish pond) on the plan somehow reminds me the middle right rosette. Its fountain's double water-jet spouts, decorated as some two heads, reminds the two flows emerging from the central point of the rosette. I wondered, what if this two "fish tails" are the two streams of a fountain in a pond?
Piscina. Wikipedia:
Quote:The piscina is a Latin word originally applied to a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and later used for natural or artificial pools for bathing, and also for a water tank or reservoir. In ecclesiastical usage it was applied to the basin used for r ablutions and sometimes other sacraments.
Of course, it's hard to explain why an earthly usual fish pond with a fountain may look bubbled and nebulous. I see it as something allegorical, meaning some divine pond or vessel.
Surprising for myself, I've found interesting lines that exactly convey the impression from the image of the right middle rosette:
"The water you see here is from no source
that needs replenishment from cloudy vapors,
like streams that rise and fall: with constant force
it leaves a fountain that receives again
from God’s Will, every drop that it pours forth
to the two streams it sends across this plain.”
(Dante Alighieri. The Divine Comedy. Canto XVIII. Purgatory.)
The two streams in the verse - the rivers Lethe and Eunoe. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Anton > 19-02-2022, 01:27 AM
As a side note, I believe that, judging by the labels' orientation, to consider this object Koen's depiction should better be rotated 90 deg clockwise. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
R. Sale > 19-02-2022, 02:25 AM
There is a central focal point with something of a floral appearance. And it could be a fountain or have more than one interpretation. La Sainte Hostie de Dijon surely had a monstrance.
The outer circle of the line drawing has unfortunately lost some of the clear, running-arch pattern that can be seen in the original. The same running-arch line pattern is found in the surrounding cloud-band. And the same line pattern is used in the Central Rosette's cloud-band. It gets to be a repetitive artistic technique.
The problem with focal points is what to focus on. -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Koen G > 19-02-2022, 02:07 PM
If both David and Anton's points are taken into account, the detail would look like this. Rotated according to the text and central dot removed .
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RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Ruby Novacna > 19-02-2022, 11:26 PM
Koen, as I am more interested in the writings than in images, I wonder if the Offerus legend could find a little place in your story. The text "ofairy okalyin" + "okchdy kary oraiin eey" means, perhaps, "Offerus crushed by a heap of the heavenly waters"? -
RE: Any ideas about this detail? (Middle right rosette).
Juan_Sali > 20-02-2022, 02:51 PM
Following the idea of Michelle I suggest Revelations 14:
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
The inner detail as the Winepress of God's Wrath that pours blood. The blue circles as grapes.
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